Mon, 24 Jan 2011 16:11:51 GMT
Lila Mulloth wrote "Ms Debra, your arrogance is rather amusing. Your close-mindedness and self ..." What's missing?...the Christ factor! The balance of love, diligent discipline and teaching via the guidance of God's Word, salvation through belief in Christ Jesus, the leading of the Holy Spirit as to how to develop the gifts and talents within your children, and the use of God's grace yields the lasting success of our parenting, that goes beyond this life on earth into eternity. I truly appreciate Mrs. Chua's full-time commitment, diligence and sacrifice in motherhood. However, the missing element, which has consistently put America as the number one nation is...God. America was founded by Christians and the law was interlaced with Christian principles. God's Blessing, the empowerment to succeed, is only by grace (God's power), faith in Christ Jesus and obedience to God's Word. Amen. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2010557 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2010557
Mon, 24 Jan 2011 15:56:38 GMT
Miriam Andrews wrote "What's missing?...the Christ factor! The balance of love, diligent discipline and teaching via the ..." I've received a number of emails suggesting that I expand this blog entry into an op-ed for submission...comments are appreciated.
http://www.opusonemedia.blogspot.com/2011/01/tiger-moms.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2010517 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2010517
Mon, 24 Jan 2011 15:46:58 GMT
Harold House wrote "I've received a number of emails suggesting that I expand this blog entry into an op-..." Listening to and reading all the angry responses to the Tiger Mom's story makes me wonder why so many people respond this way.
My wife and I always had a united front with with our two (now grown) children. We were more strict than many of our friends, but not in the same spirit as many Asian and other recent imigrant parents.
The truth about American parents is obvious. Most of us think that our children are all above average. It's that famous "Lake Wobegon" effect. They are not. We are creating weak, overly-dependent, wimps, who believe that they are better than the rest.
My hope is that these children will see the affect this cowering kind of parenting had on them. In the end, I am sure that they will toughen up with their own children. Let's hope so, anyway, for the sake of the country's future. IS this why we now have shouting matches in public forums? Each of us knows that we have the only right answers.
Lastly, this book was clearly intended as a confession by a caring, loving mother. At no time did I read that she is the perfect parent.
I suggest that these guilty parents back off and relax! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2010492 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2010492
Mon, 24 Jan 2011 15:41:10 GMT
Dennis Tarrant wrote "Listening to and reading all the angry responses to the Tiger Mom's story makes me ..." Good article! But she ignored the competition in China. Kids don't know what to do and how to do in the childhood. Then Parents need to guide them. If not, he can't match the other person when he goes to school or even steps into the workplace. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2010453 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2010453
Mon, 24 Jan 2011 15:32:40 GMT
Jun Yu wrote "Good article! But she ignored the competition in China. Kids don't know what to ..." "Apparently, most of us didn't have enough play time to be sophisticated enough to read and interpret Chua's article and her/media's intention."
Maybe you didn't either? or maybe you didn't interpret the reactions of other people correctly?
Seriously. Perhaps everyone (or most) realize that Ms. Chua wrote a book and one of the greater reasons she did that was to sell some books. Those selfsame people might just realize that Chua and the WSJ may in fact believe that controversy sells books and marketed the book as controversial - deliberately.
However that's not necessarily relevant to the discussion going on. The book may in fact *be* controversial furthermore Ms. Chua may in fact be unquestionably wrong (or right) in some of her assertions.
"Why don't we take a hard look into our education system, our daily interaction with our children, the outlook of the economy, the reality of globalization, and then work on the definition of "success" for us and our children first before we let our emotion takes the control of the argument."
Perhaps those questions themselves are spurious?
"Apparently, most of us didn't have enough play time to be sophisticated enough to read"
but apparently being arrogant isn't a bad thing in your book. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2010315 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2010315
Mon, 24 Jan 2011 15:01:38 GMT
Kim Eagles wrote ""Apparently, most of us didn't have enough play time to be sophisticated ..." Well said, madame! Lots of food for thought here. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2010041 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2010041
Mon, 24 Jan 2011 13:27:57 GMT
Jim Richards wrote "Well said, madame! Lots of food for thought here." ....I would like to know what was Amy's real motive for writing such a controversial article. We will probably never know, but wonder how can anyone take her self-serving comments seriously? How could the WSJ ever publish it? Who does Amy know at the WSJ? Can we agree that this was just another PR tactic? Come-on Amy, be straight-up and honest with us, or is this something that you prefer not to do or teach your children? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009871 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009871
Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:50:00 GMT
Nicolai Pamukoff wrote "....I would like to know what was Amy's real motive for writing such a controversial ..." I am a well respected educator with students from a broad range of cultures. It has been a privilege to become close with several Chinese families as a "third auntie." Amy Chua has clearly explained why slavery has been a popular option in the social fabric of China, whether it was slavery to an emperor or to a Communist state. It explains why young children have begun their schooling fearful and angry, neither of which is an optimal state for true learning. It certainly explains why some kids look like they are preparing to evacuate their bowels during quizzes or writing tasks.
As a high school teacher, I now know why many Chinese students are unable to respond to literature and its explorations of the human condition. They have difficulty with empathy, inquiry and with synthesizing ideas. In short, they are not up to the creative challenges of writing. It is with great interest that I have read as much as possible of Amy Tan's rebellion against parents like Ms. Chua. Hopefully the cultural mix in classrooms will help mitigate the disastrous emotional tone set by parents like Ms. Chua. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009837 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009837
Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:15:04 GMT
Constance Hood wrote "I am a well respected educator with students from a broad range of cultures. It ..." The old saw of you can't lead a horse to water and you can't make him drink but the horse can make the rest of the ride as miserable as can be comes into play here. There are ways around this that work and work well.
http://www.opusonemedia.blogspot.com/2011/01/tiger-moms.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009833 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009833
Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:05:58 GMT
Harold House wrote "The old saw of you can't lead a horse to water and you can't make ..." I was reacting to your pronouncement that only people who want to parent "in this way" ought to be parents. Of course I think it's imperative that parents take responsiblility for their kids' development and not be negligent. But I can't believe the amount of people here who think it's all right to name-call and belittle their children and act as if it's a parenting method and not a shortcoming in them as parents. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009820 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009820
Mon, 24 Jan 2011 10:38:14 GMT
Irina Feeney wrote "I was reacting to your pronouncement that only people who want to parent "in this ..." I have a few perspectives to share in light of the recent sensationalistic chatter about Amy Chua’s Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior.
SUPERIOR MOTHERS WERE NOT ALL IMPORTS
The kind of hard work, discipline and metal-winning training camps existed in all corners of the world before the American immigrant Asian Mothers honed the art. To brand this a Chinese achievement is under-rating the ability of other cultures in raising single dimensioned, sports adverse, type A personalities. All nations excel at the craft of creating such phenomenal youths, although none you would find as the countries’ representatives at the Olympic games.
CHINA IS NOT THE ONLY EXPORTER OF SUPERIOR MOTHERS
People emigrate from their native lands for various reasons, some may be seeking adventure and fresh cultural experiences, others may be seeking asylum, and still others looking for opportunities, for a new life.
Anyone leaving their country arriving in the United States could potentially harbor a mixture of the above reasons, and possibly more. America represents a new beginning for immigrants and endless opportunities for their children. Most of all America spells freedom, the foundation on which new immigrants can build their new home of hope, a future and destiny of their own writing. This is where Tiger Moms are bred. Tiger Moms is allegorical for parents of immigrants with a dream pursue and with all fervor they could muster, plus another one-hundred percent.
American is the melting pot for all nations, and therefore, the breeding ground for Superior Mothers of all nationalities. China may appear to be the biggest exporters of these moms, which gave the stereotype its validity, but that’s because China is the most populous of all nations. No other countries could nab that stereotype strictly going by numbers, not without first taking down the Chinese population.
HOW AMERICA’S SUPERIOR MOTHERS SUCCEED
Tough love has its merit. The Superior Mothers certainly can produce academic and music prodigies of refined pedigree. America’s low, mid, and high income families all showcase their owe success stories. When it comes to music and all areas of academic studies, you there is no getting to the top by sliding under the radar. Hard work and practice prevails. Again, this is not an ancient Chinese secret. Hail to Superior Mothers of all nationality in this triumph.
HOW AMERICA’S SUPERIOR MOTHERS FAIL
If America’s Superior Mothers all model after the Amy Chua make and model, then we may end up with a high count on the number of classical musicians who has a day job as an executive professional. This is a great thing. However, where it is unclear in the article is the source of training for these future executives in the areas of virtue, values, and compassion. If the children are to spend time only to rehearse music and pound out homework, where does the learning of human civility come from? Are virtues, values and compassion imparted by perfectly recited musical pieces? How will they understand empathy towards a fellow classmate his failure to do well in class due to his unfortunate family standing in society. How will the children of these Superior Mothers offer assistance to said classmate?
What purpose do we instill in our children’s lives in being on this planet? Do we teach them to conserve for future generations, to give back to the very society that supported their dreams and far reaching goals? Or do we lead them to believe that their personal perfection is all that matters in their existence in this world, nothing else comes first?
HOW TO TREAT TIGER WOUNDS AND SCARS, IF ANY ON YOU
I came across an article on CNN responding to this one by an author who bears lifelong scars from the Chinese Superior Mother parenting style. It made me think about the kind of parent I want to be.
A family, first and foremost, is the smallest unit of a community. Parents are the leaders and authoritative figures, despite some people’s more liberal views. Without having to be dictatorial in style, parents have to be firm and provide guidance and support to the children. It is better to allow them to make mistakes while on your watch, allow them to recover from it with your help, than watching them make the big mistakes in their adult lives and struggle on their own.
To immigrant parents, or parents alike, it’s important to remove your “subjective self” from parenting and evaluate things through objective lenses. If parents don’t already have their heads wrapped around “how to live on planet Earth in peace”, then the children may experience, second handed, any emotional hardship they may go through in the process of doing so. Un-reconciled, long term harbored, emotional deficits can really be like time bombs. If applicable, parents should try their best to diffuse emotional time bombs or... http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009819 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009819
Mon, 24 Jan 2011 10:37:04 GMT
elaine perry wrote "I have a few perspectives to share in light of the recent sensationalistic chatter about ..." Latest from The Economist:
Banyan: Tiger cubs v precious lambs
http://www.economist.com/node/17959516 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009783 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009783
Mon, 24 Jan 2011 09:09:59 GMT
Alex Wang wrote "Latest from The Economist:Banyan: Tiger cubs v precious lambshttp://..." Reposted from: http://whythatmatters.wordpress.com/2011/01/23/tiger-ma-de/
OK. I need to start this post with an apology. Here at WTM, we commit ourselves to try our hardest to avoid falling into the pattern we have called ‘journalist thinking’. By this we mean the attitude you find commonly in our media today, that the writer’s job is limited to raising awareness of a problem but he/she is not obligated to provide leadership towards finding solution. We feel that this is the greatest bane of journalism today and a better explanation for the threatened ‘death’ of journalism rather than new digital distribution models. I might not live up to that standard in this article.
I need to further apologize because I’m going to share some thoughts on this new ‘tiger mom’ phenomenon without first reading the book that has caused the stir. Furthermore, I have no intention of reading either this author’s current book ‘Battle Hymns’ or any of her previous works. I’m stating an opinion based solely on her own article in the WSJ, the cover story in Time magazine and also on the summaries and reviews of her previous work on Amazon.
There. Got over the apology. Let’s talk about Amy Chua Rubenfeld and this ‘tiger mom’ phenomenon.
I’m writing because if Amy Chua Rubenfeld really wrote what is attributed to her in the WSJ and Time articles, then I feel that she is a charlatan. As an educator, especially one at an institute of higher learning, which the Yale Law School purports to being, this author should be held to a standard higher than the race-baiting, stereotyping sensationalism that she is peddling with this book. She hides behind the claim that she wrote this as a ‘memoir’ and not as a how-to guide to parenting, but that doesn’t hold water. As a professor of law, she should know that her position as a published author and a university professor gives what she writes added weight…. and as such, an added obligation. She has failed this obligation miserably and, I feel, knowingly.
If she had intended to make a contribution to society by pushing forward the conversation about effective parenting, I would have lauded her work. There is a need for us as a society to find the right balance between strictness and understanding when raising children. However, it is not believable that this is her intention. Instead, she is trying to sensationalize the issue by taking advantage of the current simmering mistrust between China and the US, by cashing out on her ethnic roots. That is REPREHENSIBLE. To characterize specific behavior patterns and values as distinctly from one race or another, as she does by calling out strict mothers as ‘Chinese mothers’ is an ugly form of racism. That her husband is a Jew and the Jewish people have suffered so much in the 20th century because of this type of racism makes her offense even less forgivable. Is it alright for people with Chinese-roots to spew racism about Chinese people, or Jews about Jews, or Blacks about Blacks? Harriet Beecher Stowe gave us the answer 150 years ago. It’s high time this author rereads Stowe’s work. Pulling an Uncle Tom to make a quick buck or stroking a professional ego is disgusting, especially for someone in such a privileged and respected position.
If Amy Chua Rubenfeld wants to leverage her position of influence to do her part to advance the conversation about parenting in this modern era, she needs to roll up her sleeves and do some real work. Here are some ideas, Amy, if you are reading:
1) Parenting, as practical application of the cognitive sciences, should be investigated as a science. Instead of presenting one isolated anecdote (your own experiences), you need to provide the scientific rigor to find credible (and helpful) recommendations. This should include statistically significant analysis that exposes strong correlations as well as experimentation to identify causality. Furthermore, if you want to pursue the hypothesis that all kids are equally tractable and can equally benefit from a fixed set of parenting techniques, please also include this in your test design.
2) If you are mathematically challenged, as the you imply with the following quote, please seek the help of a qualified statistician. “If a Chinese child gets a B—which would never happen—there would first be a screaming, hair-tearing explosion. The devastated Chinese mother would then get dozens, maybe hundreds of practice tests and work through them with her child for as long as it takes to get the grade up to an A.” — I don’t know of any school other than Yale where all the kids in the class can get As.
3) Try to assume the humility of an intellect and scientist....
( reached comment length limit. to continue reading, please visit me at the link above ) http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009773 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009773
Mon, 24 Jan 2011 08:43:26 GMT
Why That Matters wrote "Reposted from: http://whythatmatters.wordpress.com/2011/01/23/tiger-ma-de/OK. I need to ..." You totally missed the point, period.
In the opposite, all those big shots are super hard working people. I tell you what, go watch Bill Gates' recent interview with CNBC, you will know how he grew up as a nerdy, workaholic child. The statues of successful business leader are coupled with the development of the society. China got its own social problems but how that related to not teaching children the merits of hard working and striving for excellence? This is just like the thinking of Obama's ancestor came from the backwater Kenya thus despite his personal achievements he is still inferior to be the president of US of A? So wrong.
After all this is a parenting article. If you just want to bash China, go somewhere else, there are plenty of China related headlines in WSJ EVERYDAY you can keep yourself busy with. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009765 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009765
Mon, 24 Jan 2011 08:26:22 GMT
James Yu wrote "You totally missed the point, period.In the opposite, all those big shots are ..." REALITY CHECK - I'm glad at least the dialogue is expanding. For those who are interested in a real perspective, the following is an article that rings much truer to life and Chinese parenting (This is a translation from the original Chinese ????:??????????
Chinese Mom: American 'Tiger Mother' clueless about real Chinese parenting
http://www.cnngo.com/shanghai/life/helen-he-dont-demonize-chinese-mothers-545975#ixzz1BwGgcNyq
"In other words, the parenting that Amy Chua received while growing up already deviates from Chinese traditions, and despite her attempts to follow in the footsteps of her parents, the Chinese parenting method she champions has no claims to authenticity."
"A survey of 1,285 mothers of children up to six years old conducted by Babytree, China’s largest parenting website, found that health, happiness, self-confidence and kindness were the four most important traits that mothers hoped their children would have."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009763 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009763
Mon, 24 Jan 2011 08:24:37 GMT
Robert Dunn wrote "REALITY CHECK - I'm glad at least the dialogue is expanding. For those who are interested in a ..." Vijay, you will be surprised to know that most of the Chinese who left the country in the 1800s and 1900s were the lower class unskilled farmers (like Amy Chua's ancestors). They were the ones who didn't have much education and resources. Their standing in the society at the time was equivalent to the untouchables in India. That's why they had to leave China when Qing Dynasty was in decline. But through hardwork and the belief that education could bring their children better life, they eventually came to dominate most of South East Asia's economies.
Another thing you should know is that these Chinese immigrants mostly came from the costal regions in two historical backward/unimportant Chinese provinces (Canton and Fukkien).
The economic achievements created by the Cantonese and Fukkienese can easily rival any ethnic groups in the world. The economies where they dominate (the Canton/Fukkien provinces of China, Taiwan, Hongkong, Singapore, Phillipines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand etc) easily have a higher combined GDP than the whole of India. Yet there are only about 140 million Cantonese/Fukkienese in the whole world.
Says what you will about Amy Chua's method. But her type of Chinese (the older Cantonese/Fukkienese immigrants who still believed in traditional Chinese values) created a world far better than the one that they're born with.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009729 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009729
Mon, 24 Jan 2011 07:47:27 GMT
peter sonyster wrote "Vijay, you will be surprised to know that most of the Chinese who left the country in the 1800s and ..." Above all this is a very aspiring yet controversial piece. Since I became parent myself, I was always thinking what's the best way of parenthood. Well it seems all come back to what do YOU believe in. Amy Chu clearly believe in happiness is the pursuit of success and bearing the survival paranoia in the core, ('....it's a cold world out there....prepared your child for it...' - MSNBC interview) that explain why she cultivated her children in an extreme way.
It become clear teaching your child self-motivating is the best way in a dynamic world (unless you lived in the cave in the past 5 years, you couldn't have not notice the shift in the world economy) but not in a harsh way...not in a tiger mother way.
Let me tell you my wife got a Korean mother friend and there is not in a single way she doesn't do to make her child excel, and when the duo sit together they will constantly comparing each other child's progress, in a covert way anyway. So from my understanding the approach is universal. But I prefer to lead my children to where their interests sparkled instead of bonding to violin and piano two ol staples. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009724 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009724
Mon, 24 Jan 2011 07:39:25 GMT
James Yu wrote "Above all this is a very aspiring yet controversial piece. Since I became ..." When I was learning the skills that eventually enabled me to become a professional musician (graduated magna cum laude from music school at a major university, continued studying w/some private teachers for a few years afterward, went on to work w/some very prominent artists), I studied w/a succession of teachers who had achieved high levels of professional success, in some cases international prominence. Nearly all of them used a positive reinforcement model (ie, make you feel good if you do it right; offer constructive criticism & encouragement if you do it wrong). One in particular used a negative reinforcement model (tear you down from the start, make you feel lousy w/shame & public humiliation if you do it wrong, minimize it if you do it right -- it was a painful process, but he was a master at what he did & I did learn). All of them were brilliant in their own ways, both as performers & teachers: I learned a lot from each & improved substantially in one area or another. Looking back on it, I really believe I could have developed the knowledge & skills I acquired from the negative teacher just as well from a more constructive approach, & today can impart those benefits to others without the pain. Yes, I suppose pain & misery *can* be as powerful motivators as encouragement & praise, but having experienced firsthand both approaches, I've seen nothing that convinces me a negative approach is inherently more effective. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009594 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009594
Mon, 24 Jan 2011 05:51:54 GMT
Leonard Rothbart wrote "When I was learning the skills that eventually enabled me to become a professional musician (..." It's exaggerating ok. Just because maybe the author had that experience and she hated, doesn't mean all Chinese parents are like that. And from what I know, Korean parents are far more strict ! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009567 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009567
Mon, 24 Jan 2011 05:31:53 GMT
Yi Leaves wrote "It's exaggerating ok. Just because maybe the author had that experience and she hated, ..." d http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009549 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009549
Mon, 24 Jan 2011 05:17:29 GMT
David Broadbent wrote "d" I wonder what I should have said to my, at the time, seven-year-old then when she said she wanted to quit the piano because her friend was thinking of doing that. Here’s the text. I think it’s quite adorable:
Saturday, November 1, 2008:
Too much talk-talk, not enough dong-dong
Isabella, referring to her friend Cloe’s piano practice: “I saw her practice, Dad. It was just one note, dong. That’s all she did. One dong and then there was this big, long chat with her teacher about everything she does wrong. (Unhappily (ital)) I never get to do only one note. I have to go dong, dong, dong, dong, dong for ages before my teacher ever says anything to me. My practice is always dong, dong, dong, dong, talk, talk, dong, dong, dong, dong, talk, talk, dong, dong, dong, dong, talk, talk; whereas hers is dong, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. She said she’s going to quit, Dad.”
If it was fine to berate Lulu for not being able to play something that was “incredibly difficult for young players because the two hands have to keep schizophrenically different rhythms”, then I should have clobbered my daughter, right? No, she’s not my lump of plasticine to mould as I see fit!
David
Author of 389 Conversations With My Three Kids, blog http://extrafingers.posterous.com)
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009546 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009546
Mon, 24 Jan 2011 05:16:56 GMT
David Broadbent wrote "I wonder what I should have said to my, at the time, seven-..." "Oh come, maybe the "math" expert can enlighten us with replicating the OECD database using SAS or SPSS and calculate your variance?"
I'm not sure what you mean by "replicating the OECD database" but if you point me to the raw data. I can do all the tests I want. - OK I just found it - I'll see what I have the time for.
"The database manual has chapters upon chapters of instructions on calculating standard errors, and level of significance, plausible values etc etc, too many for us idiots to even follow."
It's kind of weird looking at SAS/SPSS when my department has been working in R for so long now. Yes, I know how to do those things but while I have not read that book I'd say statistics is rather subtle. For example I could point you to a number of medical studies which do things like show a statistically significant advantage to a cold remedy with a P < 0.001. Sounds fine doesn't it. However the advantage is about 3-6 hours.
"I have been waiting for a rebuttal"
I didn't know you made an argument.
"if some math expert can replicate the data offered on the OECD website. PISA says "database allows researchers to replicate the analysis."
Try to read a book or something. What I said was that it's difficult to determine (from the raw scores) what the meaningful difference is (and by that token *if* there's a meaningful difference). There are a few reasons:
i) Yeah, all I had seen are the raw scores and honestly that's all you have run your rather big mouth about too. One other thing I saw just after my old post was a chart with scores and "above/below/equal" categoricals to the mean for 2009. In which the US seemed to be mostly at the mean - depending how you weight them.
ii) No matter how you slice it it's still ordinal data - which by definition means there's no objective metric for determining the distance. Unless you can tell me what 10 PISA points definitively measures.
iii) Yes, since our sample is not random it's possible that all we are measuring is something entirely unrelated. Deal.
"I will be very happy to hear through your examination of data that no. 1 and 31 are no different."
*yawn* What I said was, it's difficult to know how meaningful the differences in score are.
"What a perfect reasoning--Even if there is significant difference, the sample is biased!"
No but it isn't random which makes it difficult to control for biases. Would you rather assume that magically all the biasing factors happened to balance out? Apparently so.
"This really sounds like my school district that says the continuous slip in school ranking doesn't matter, as long as we are doing wonderful things."
Only to someone who wants to be stupider than they already are. I believe in metrics . I just happen to believe in objective ones.
"This is a survey, not a competition"
I don't really see how you think that but whatever.
"Shanghai is a city of 20 million and the students were from 20 schools (if I remember correctly). My first instinct was the loser's excuse too."
What does that even mean?
"Anyone calls the OECD popular media? Is OECD even a US media?"
Please try to be less silly. I'm referring to "Time" magazine which was referenced.
"The British Secretary of State for Education said,"Today's report underlies the urgent need to reform our education system." He must be an idiot who relies on a pile of useless media hype, so are other countries like Ireland that identifies the urgent need too. They must all be just so idiotic, all brainwashed by popular media."
*yawn* yeah *that's* a logical argument. People make stupid distinctions on bad data every day of the week. Important people are sadly no exception.
"I can say the report is useless, only when US is no. 1. I assume Shanghai is saying it right now. How useless, both the winners and losers say it is useless."
All I'm saying it's that because we don't know a bunch of things it's utility is difficult to determine. It may, in fact be useless. If so, it wouldn't be the first useless metric and sure won't be the last. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009538 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009538
Mon, 24 Jan 2011 05:10:55 GMT
Kim Eagles wrote ""Oh come, maybe the "math" expert can enlighten us with ..." How American thinking is this? How creative is this?! How can one who was raised in total freedom, balance, order, rhythm and harmony ends up so bitter? So prejudiced? "Americans produce the most garbage in the world!"
http://www.wisegeek.com/how-much-garbage-does-a-person-create-in-one-year.htm http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009442 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009442
Mon, 24 Jan 2011 04:14:06 GMT
Chunyan Li wrote "How American thinking is this? How creative is this?! How can one who was raised in ..." Oh come, maybe the "math" expert can enlighten us with replicating the OECD database using SAS or SPSS and calculate your variance? The database manual has chapters upon chapters of instructions on calculating standard errors, and level of significance, plausible values etc etc, too many for us idiots to even follow. I have been waiting for a rebuttal if some math expert can replicate the data offered on the OECD website. PISA says "database allows researchers to replicate the analysis." I will be very happy to hear through your examination of data that no. 1 and 31 are no different.
What a perfect reasoning--Even if there is significant difference, the sample is biased! This really sounds like my school district that says the continuous slip in school ranking doesn't matter, as long as we are doing wonderful things. This is a survey, not a competition. Shanghai is a city of 20 million and the students were from 20 schools (if I remember correctly). My first instinct was the loser's excuse too.
Anyone calls the OECD popular media? Is OECD even a US media?
The British Secretary of State for Education said,"Today's report underlies the urgent need to reform our education system." He must be an idiot who relies on a pile of useless media hype, so are other countries like Ireland that identifies the urgent need too. They must all be just so idiotic, all brainwashed by popular media.
I can say the report is useless, only when US is no. 1. I assume Shanghai is saying it right now. How useless, both the winners and losers say it is useless.
http://www.oecd.org/document/38/0,3746,en_32252351_32236191_42609254_1_1_1_1,00.html
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009412 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009412
Mon, 24 Jan 2011 03:57:40 GMT
Chunyan Li wrote "Oh come, maybe the "math" expert can enlighten us with replicating the ..." By the myopic standards of success of Chinese mothers, why are there so many Chinese "failures"? Why are there so many Chinese kids who don't play the violin/piano well, don't go to Ivy League schools, don't go to medical school, etc. If this 'model' worked so well, why is the failure rate so high?
Much more troubling, this sort of sheep-like conformity destroys entrepreneurship and innovation. Who is going to innovate and create wealth for society? Where are the Chinese Apple's and Google's? Who are the Chinese Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, and Warren Buffet's? This model creates factory workers, not leaders.
I still have to applaud her for putting this ridiculous worldview on paper, so that it can be discussed and ridiculed. It reads like Mein Kampf. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009353 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009353
Mon, 24 Jan 2011 03:28:11 GMT
Vijay Padmanabhan wrote "By the myopic standards of success of Chinese mothers, why are there so many Chinese "..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_massacre
Virginia Tech Massacre technically not Chinese but close enough http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009266 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009266
Mon, 24 Jan 2011 02:58:53 GMT
Ra Laxus wrote "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_massacreVirginia Tech Massacre technically not ..." As I've mentioned before it's unclear - to someone schooled in math - what the PISA actually demonstrates. No variance data is published so it's impossible to determine how comparable the differences are. Also as mentioned PISA is self-selected - all we may be measuring is the dedication of the people who send students to the competition. Period. Yes. It may be that useless.
Sometimes I wonder if the popular media actually helps anyone learn anything. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009154 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009154
Mon, 24 Jan 2011 02:01:53 GMT
Kim Eagles wrote "As I've mentioned before it's unclear - to someone schooled in math - what the PISA actually ..." Oh please, it's far more than the title that's provocative:
"A lot of people wonder how Chinese parents raise such stereotypically successful kids. They wonder what these parents do to produce so many math whizzes and music prodigies, what it's like inside the family, and whether they could do it too. Well, I can tell them, because I've done it."
It's not hard to see how that might at least imply to some that this is parenting advice, or a proposed parenting style. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009129 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009129
Mon, 24 Jan 2011 01:49:47 GMT
Kim Eagles wrote "Oh please, it's far more than the title that's provocative:"A lot of people ..." Except Ms. Chua doesn't really tell us how to be that either. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009104 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009104
Mon, 24 Jan 2011 01:40:31 GMT
Kim Eagles wrote "Except Ms. Chua doesn't really tell us how to be that either." So I wasn't in a bookstore this weekend but I did hang with someone who reads Gladwell a lot. He said his argument is more on the idea that Asian number ordering (digit * value placeholder) is more "intuitive". I'm not sure what that has to do with reciting the multiplication tables (which gets mentioned a lot in reference to he argument) . I suppose to a point you could say that to count past ten means knowing how to multiply but it's only true for the 10,100,1000 and 10 000 times tables. (I'm always amused how the higher order numbers are all over the place in Chinese literature) . Anyway the use of counting rods and abacus show that when it came to larger scale math that a place/value system made more sense.
So as usual Gladwell kind of puts something out there but doesn't really think it through. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009100 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009100
Mon, 24 Jan 2011 01:37:27 GMT
Kim Eagles wrote "So I wasn't in a bookstore this weekend but I did hang with someone who ..." "If your daughter wasn't doing well in calculus, how would you handle that?"
If someone came to me with a problem with Calculus I'd probably handle it the same way I'd solve any other problem.
i) Determine what the problem is (or if there is in fact a problem - I would postulate that someone could 'not do well' - depending on how one defines 'well' but still have no problem - as I've mentioned before I had a prof which never gave out an A in one of his classes).
ii) Determine the course of action if a problem exists. Some things might require further explanation, some things may require additional practice, some things - interestingly enough - require absolutely nothing but time. Delta-epsilon theory was something like this. Everyone in 1st year calc could recite the theorem we knew would be on the exam. However there's a difference between replication and understanding. For a good portion of my classmates understanding D-E was something that just kind of 'happened". Some got it right away and others just understood it while they were doing something else.
Ms. Chua - based on what little information we have seems to think the second option is really the only thing there is. That might be understandable (but light-years from laudable) if she doesn't actually know much about math and doesn't really have the time to learn. So rote and yelling - to me anyway - look as much or more like coping mechanisms for the parent rather than help for the child. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009054 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009054
Mon, 24 Jan 2011 01:13:17 GMT
Kim Eagles wrote ""If your daughter wasn't doing well in calculus, how would you ..." if this woman is such an over-achiever, then why is she living in New Haven? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009019 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2009019
Mon, 24 Jan 2011 00:59:13 GMT
HENRY SIDEL wrote "if this woman is such an over-achiever, then why is she living in New Haven?" Amy Chua, which toilet paper is superior Chinese or western ? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008938 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008938
Mon, 24 Jan 2011 00:05:16 GMT
Aleksander Alisani wrote "Amy Chua, which toilet paper is superior Chinese or western ?" Haha, I'm sure Sea Gull's father was more creative. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008932 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008932
Mon, 24 Jan 2011 00:00:36 GMT
peter sonyster wrote "Haha, I'm sure Sea Gull's father was more creative." Good job for spelling Ms Chua's surname correctly, you're already more superior than more than half of the people who left a comment here. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008924 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008924
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 23:54:27 GMT
peter sonyster wrote "Good job for spelling Ms Chua's surname correctly, you're already more ..." Some of the comments here are purely motivated by racial hatred. I don't know what kind of family name is Soria, but a quick google search shows that there was a Dr Felimon Soria graduated from a medical college in the Phillipines and is currently practicing in CA. To be honest, is there any hidden Phillipinos connections to Einstein, Gates, Buffet, ML King, Patton, MacArthur, Washing, Lincoln, Earhart that we didn't know about?
Instead of asking what great men and women has the 'Chinese Mother' produced, why don't you ask yourself what great men and women has the 'Phillipinos Mother' produced?
It's probably safe to say that majority of the modern achievements were results of the Jewish and Anglo-Saxons, so should people of other ancestries simply shut up until they have a Einstein, Gates, Buffet, ML King of their own?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008882 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008882
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 23:23:59 GMT
peter sonyster wrote "Some of the comments here are purely motivated by racial hatred. I don't know ..." My life was immersed in both Eastern and Western cultures. I can see the pros and cons of both. After watching Amy on YouTube, she appeared more balanced than what was presented on the WSJ article. The debate is fantastic.
I was concerned about the impact of culture and parenting practices and emotional development and conducted a study. It is published in The School Psychology International Journal, April, 2010, 31(2), titled “The Impact of Culture on Parenting Practices of East Asian Families and Emotional Intelligence of Older Adolescents: A Qualitative Study”. Honestly, it is not the matter of Eastern vs. Western. It is about who we are as human beings. The awareness of how our beliefs and values impact our children and adolescents, select best practices, and integrate it into lifestyle will only produce higher quality people. We all need to work together for our future sake.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008871 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008871
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 23:15:37 GMT
Helen Sung wrote "My life was immersed in both Eastern and Western cultures. I can see the ..." Paul, I see your point. You're right. I tend to be kind of insensitive towards some of these issues. I do believe that poverty is a huge issue in our country. The other aspects of poverty you mentioned like domestic violence, sexual abuse, etc.--children should not have to grow up in those environments. Unfortunately, some people are just unfit to be parents. And the cycle will continue as long as people with such problems are are allowed to have kids. We can't dictate who should have kids or who should not have kids, so how else would we be able to solve these problems? Schools can only do so much. The government can only do so much. The community can only do so much.
Anyway, sorry for the insensitivity.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008840 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008840
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 22:52:02 GMT
Grace Cheung wrote "Paul, I see your point. You're right. I tend to be kind of ..." I am pretty happy at 28 years old, and isn't happiness what Americans consider to be the most important?
I was coerced into music lessons on the piano, tennis instruction twice a week, swimming lessons twice a week, English tutoring once a week, Art lessons once a week, Chinese classes (ON MY SATURDAYS!), Golf lessons on Sundays, Math Classes after school, basketball practice, and karate class; however I am now fluent in Mandarin Chinese, did well in college, and enjoy everything except for the piano! I enjoy both tennis and golf with my friends on the weekends, enjoy snorkeling, and I'm trying to pick up surfing now (and I'm an intermediate snowboarder), train in martial arts twice a week and I'm looking for another one to add to that.
I did sometimes feel secluded from my friends at school, but I also made a lot of friends in the various classes and lessons that I 'had' to take.
The kicker here is that I've found a good job in China (even for US standards) and I'm hoping to move there in a couple months, and after visiting several times in the last couple years, I think I'll enjoy my time there.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008791 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008791
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 22:19:10 GMT
Edward Chin wrote "I am pretty happy at 28 years old, and isn't happiness what ..." If anything, Amy Chua certainly knows how to be controversial or make enemies out of her readers.
Honestly, I like the book and have read it, which does not mean I endorse every word of it. I applaud her parenting effort and her sacrifice of large chunks of her time, though I cannot be like her, not because I am any nicer than she is but because we are different in our personality. It takes both a cultural background and a unique character like her to generate her kind of parenting style. I have known many dedicated Chinese parents but have never seen one like her. She is one of a kind.
While some people see the harsh discipline that she employed in raising her children and dish out harsh words against the tiger mother, I see tremendous responsibilities and sacrifice that this Chinese mother has done for her children, which, sadly to say, are not often seen among American parents. I have to admit that I have not been as responsible in parenting as she has been.
American schools would not have yielded so many losers and dropouts if there were more responsible parents like Amy Chua. While she raised her children to a higher level of living, many American parents have kept theirs to the level of bare existence.
Some parents, under the excuse of giving their children a “carefree childhood”, are in reality finding excuse for their irresponsible and careless parenting. Shame on these lazy, irresponsible and selfish parents!
Below is a quote from the book, which I wholly agree.
“What Chinese parents understand is that nothing is fun until you’re good at it. To get at anything you have to work, and children on their own never want to work, which is why it is crucial to override their preferences. This often requires fortitude on the part of the parents because the child will resist; things are always hardest at the beginning, which is where Western parents tend to give up. But if done properly, the Chinese strategy produces a virtuous circle. Tenacious practice, practice, practice, practice is crucil for excellence; rote repetition is underrated in America. Once a child starts to excel at something–whether its math, piano, pitching, or ballet–he or she gets praise, admiration, and satisfaction. This builds confidence and makes the once not-fun activity fun. This in turn makes easier for the parents to get the child to work even more.” p. 29
Talk about raising a happy child, my daughter agrees with the author that nothing makes her happy until she performs well at school or gets prize at competition or feels she is really good at something. She also knows clearly that only through the bitter hard work can one enjoy the sweet fruits of accomplishments.
Don’t we know this — no pain, no gain. As with anything in life, a carefree childhood can potentially mean poverty-stricken adulthood, poor in body and mind or lifelong dependence on wellfare. Because of this, the country needs millions of tiger mother to clean up this gigantic mess in American schools.
Amy Chua is nakedly honest in her book and in her open criticism of western parenting. I admire her courage and 100 percent honesty, which is as rare as giant pandas among Asian Americans. She is one of a kind in that she makes a battle cry instead of insect humming, which is most of us do. Otherwise, how can people pay any attention to the humming of an insignificant ant. In fact, it is high time that someone stood out with a book like this. A huge thankyou to the author!
The author has not only challenged western parents but also put to shame millions of them and their erroneous parenting philosophy by pointing out the undesirable consequences, which has yielded one of the lowest education achievement among developed nations.
She also makes people re-think what is good to the next generation and to the nation in the long run — a playful childhood, game and TV followed by a poor and a miserable adulthood or hard-working childhood followed by a rich and happy adulthood.
I accept her philosophy. In fact, I agree with the spirit of the book whole-heartedly, though I cannot go with her method of putting it into practice. Once again, she has behaved this way not because she is a Chinese but because of her unique personality. Nothing is more stupid and narrow-minded than assuming that there is a tiger mother behind the success of every Chinese kid. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008786 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008786
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 22:16:23 GMT
yanwen xia wrote "If anything, Amy Chua certainly knows how to be controversial or make enemies out of ..." My parents tried to force me to do sports and piano. I hated both and dropped them as quickly as I could. When I became an adult I finally did the things that I enjoyed. The only sports I enjoy these days is swimming and bicycling and that's because it wasn't forced on me. I have many interests these days that have nothing to do with the activities of my childhood.
No we're not Chinese. A lot of parents think they have good intentions but you can't force things on someone, sooner or later they'll break. I realize that's not true for all children, some children eventually come to enjoy the activities they were forced to do. I wasn't that way though. I still have no desire to play the piano and I don't think I ever will.
I'm 28. The beauty of being an adult is that you can choose for yourself, but its unfortunate that parents with "good intentions" ruin their children's childhoods. I also had strict parents and had to fight my parents to go to sleep overs and parties with my best friends, and my parents knew these girls. I still feel sad at the things that I couldn't do that my best friends could do.
My mom now regrets that she did that and she's really sorry about it, you can't turn back the clock, all you can do is go from where you are with your parents. My dad isn't sorry about what he did. Even though my mom is sorry I still feel like I missed out on a lot of experiences that other kids had. The ability to choose my own hobbies and spend time with friends. That's something you can't get back.
I think I have a good adult life now that I can choose for myself, but you still can't get the time back in your childhood. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008737 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008737
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 21:41:01 GMT
Jaime Donovan wrote "My parents tried to force me to do sports and piano. I hated ..." I don't feel nasty in the least. With the overpopulation on our tremendously burdened planet, I do feel that parenting should not be an ill thought out premise, but a planned out and carefully organized feat.. therefore the children that are born would need to be reared by those who have only their best interest at heart and are willing to set limits and goals, while allowing autonomy when they accomplish these.. Not parents who are unfit surely, nor those whose idea of a babysitter is a cartoon or absent parent ..or worse.
Being allowed to reproduce should certainly be more stringent than applying for a driver's license and as of now it appears any brood mare of a female can be impregnated with no thoughts whatsoever in plans for that child's best interest or future.
I don't need validation but am very happy to find my type of parenting has led to 2 daughters who are excelling in each thing they tackle.. and are not complacent illiterate humans choosing the easy routes which lead to more of the status quo that the typical student exhibits in this country as it stands.. and going downhill rather fast in scores as compared to many parts of the world..
If you, Irina ,are happy with lackluster children who have no firm goals , work habits or ideas about how to accomplish them, then please don't reproduce.
Only those parents willing to make a huge commitment in time and priorities need apply..
There are far too many unwanted, unloved, neglected and abused children in the world to add to this equation with nothing more than mediocrity..
debra reece simons http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008612 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008612
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 20:16:52 GMT
debra reece simons wrote "I don't feel nasty in the least. With the overpopulation on our tremendously burdened planet, ..." I don't fully buy in to the notion that the US is broken. What we are seeing is another wave of people (Indians and Chinese) who were simply not participating in the global economy until recently. China in particular had to suffer through the Maoist strategy of purposeful agrarian impoverishment. So whether its Chinese Americans who have opportunity because they were able to migrate to the US, or Chinese who have opportunity because of the new strategy of China to become a player in the global economy, they are maniacally getting after it.
As Mrs Chua's own story tells, some of that single minded fervor will moderate as new baselines are established. In China, once having things (cars, apartments, consumer electronics, global travel) become the norm, they'll turn their attention to civil freedoms. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008595 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008595
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 19:59:20 GMT
Andrew James wrote "I don't fully buy in to the notion that the US is broken. What we are seeing is ..." "If people do not want to parent in this way, then perhaps they could do us favors and not reproduce.. parenting is hard work if done correctly.
debra reece simons, asheville, nc"
Why the nastiness, Debra? You appear to be no stranger to name-calling and quick judgments, and your satisfaction at being validated by Ms Chua is visceral. I pity your kids. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008577 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008577
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 19:45:01 GMT
Irina Feeney wrote ""If people do not want to parent in this way, then perhaps they could do us ..." I actually think this strike on the nerve is a good thing. It reminds us about many valuable things we has lost in raising next generation. But of course, as one can imagine, not everyone can take such a trike since we are used to be praised and admired even though our country is also broke and our kids ranked so low in important global academic competitions. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008452 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008452
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 18:21:40 GMT
John Mackay wrote "I actually think this strike on the nerve is a good thing. It reminds us about ..." Honestly, I think you should read the post above you by Felicity Tao to understand this is not about how bad China is. Amy Chua is an American who has nothing to do with China
BTW, I had just come back from a visit to China. It obviously has problems but generally doesn't look so bad as our newspaper depicted. On the contrary, we were shocked by what they have achieved. It seems brainwash bhappens everywhere, not only in China. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008436 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008436
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 18:14:18 GMT
John Mackay wrote "Honestly, I think you should read the post above you by Felicity ..." This is actually a very sad story. You can lead a horse to water and you can make it drink but if the horse isn't thirsty you have a struggle on your hands.
Kids need opportunities and they need the internal discipline to avoid the "one and done" thing as well. Spending a life in one episodic pursuit after another is as bad as being chained to a piano when the kid really wants ballet or vice versa.
There are better ways to do this.
http://www.opusonemedia.blogspot.com/2011/01/tiger-moms.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008396 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008396
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 17:54:45 GMT
Harold House wrote "This is actually a very sad story. You can lead a horse to water and you ..." My question to the Chinese Mothers (CMs) that find themselves so high and mighty, where were you all when the Chinese laborers were being raised as mindless drones, willing to perform treacherous jobs in horrid, Earth-wrecking conditions? Is it so good to conform when it leads to being burried in a mine you were too timid to question, since authority told you to go in for pennies an hour?
And what about the exreme rate of suicide that occurs after college entrance exam grades are posted in China? Was this because you raised your children with the discipline to understand that it is best for the Chinese race if the failures are self-weeded out?
I was raised by a very Western Mother and provided near absolute freedom. Overall I turned out pretty well; I have a job managing a team of software engineers (perhaps shocking to you, they are all very much "American American"), my wife and I are raising our first son and so far so good, and I try to do my part to help others (no mention of this in your article of superiority).
I'm not saying either form of parenting is right or wrong, though I feel this article is heavily skewed toward the wealthy city dwellers of China and has forgotten the other 3/4 of the nation that don't have enough money to buy the rice needed to fully feed their families, much less buy a piano or violin for their child's "mandatory" 3 hr a day lessons. And not only will that child not be learning the violin, they will likely be put to work to earn additional income for the family (as occurs in nearly every impoverished nation of the world). The problem with most comparison studies of grades between 1st world countries and all the rest (yes, China is still working its way to BECOME 1st world, it isn't there yet regardless of what you priviledged CMs care to believe) is that America's ratings are based on ALL students, not just those prviledged enough to attend school vs. working the fields or mines (though your government will tell us these problems don't exist and block Google from allowing access to the proof that it does). And while I know America is still failing misserably versus other 1st world countries, and we do need to step up our game both at home and at school, perhaps CMs could instill a bit more philanthropy in their children and a sense of commitment to do what is right not just for the family, but also for all of society (and, yes, THE EARTH should be considered too you donks).
I know the "American Way" of freedom may be too much to handle for a country still trying to balance between communism and capitolism, but don't be so quick to write off this independent thinking that you care so little about in your society. For most here it is seen as the only way we will save our Earth from those who care so little they dump anything and everything into the air and oceans, send the "expendable" into unsafe mines, and drive their children to suicide over grades.
I'm sorry if this comes off bitter, but think outside your family box and consider how the rest of the world views your "perfect little angels" before ranting to us about how great you are... usually bragging is something the insecure resort to in order to lift themselves above the rest. Take a moment to LOWER yourself to the average Chinese citizen (or world citizen for that matter) then come back and tell us what the CMs are doing to raise children more conscious of this world and society they live in. Or would that not leave enough time to play the violin just so mommy can feel good and show her angels off at the party?
"Happiness is not a matter of intensity but of balance, order, rhythm and harmony." http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008374 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008374
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 17:44:15 GMT
Dad L wrote "My question to the Chinese Mothers (CMs) that find themselves so high and mighty, ..." John - Mrs Chua does not propose a parenting style. She wrote an autobiography, describing how she was raised, and how she started off using that approach with her own kids, and how her experience with her youngest daughter forced a revision to the approach.
Obviously a nerve was struck, by her book, and more so by the WSJ article with the provocative title, that was chosen by the WSJ editor, not by Mrs Chua. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008369 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008369
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 17:41:44 GMT
Andrew James wrote "John - Mrs Chua does not propose a parenting style. She wrote an autobiography, ..." I would blame WSJ for polarizing this issue by using that provoking title and making this a "western" vs. "eastern" argument. Chua is one Chinese American parent. Like every other parent, she has her own way of parenting. We can all read the article, make our own judgment, take it if you see something useful to add to your parenting skill set or leave it if you totally disapprove it.
It is sad to see how the media capitalize on this argument even if many many Chinese/Asian parents came out with different opinions on parenting. It is sad to see "no play dates, no sleep over, etc." become the most quoted words by the media in this excerpt from someone's memoir of her family life, despite Chua's disclaimer that this article is not intended to be parenting guidelines for anyone. I am afraid many readers/commentators totally miss the point of this article and see this as a challenge to their personal parenting style or even worse, attack on the Western "superior-in many commentators' opinion" way of parenting. It is sad to see many comments are generating this number counting competition about which culture produces more "successful" individuals while we may all disagree on what success is to every one of us.
Words are flat. We can't see the multi-faceted reality through the words in Chua's article or the comments. From the words, we may see Chua as a harsh, extreme mother, a dramatic, one dimensional figure. We don't see her tender sides, her relationship with her daughters, her daughters' take on her parenting style. She was considered as the "worst person ever born, ever" by a Russian media commentator. She is dehumanized by many.
The outcome of all the argument came down to a few thousand more clicks to WSJ's website, one of the best sellers for Chua, and lots of emotions among the readers, none of which produces any intellectual insight into the reality. Why don't we take a hard look into our education system, our daily interaction with our children, the outlook of the economy, the reality of globalization, and then work on the definition of "success" for us and our children first before we let our emotion takes the control of the argument.
According to David Brooks from New York Times, sleep overs and play dates produce the opportunities to hone in negotiation and people reading skills. Apparently, most of us didn't have enough play time to be sophisticated enough to read and interpret Chua's article and her/media's intention.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008357 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008357
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 17:34:45 GMT
Felicity Tao wrote "I would blame WSJ for polarizing this issue by using that provoking title and making this a &..." I would blame WSJ for polarizing this issue by using that provoking title and making this a "western" vs. "eastern" argument. Chua is one Chinese American parent. Like every other parent, she has her own way of parenting. We can all read the article, make our own judgment, take it if you see something useful to add to your parenting skill set or leave it if you totally disapprove it.
It is sad to see how the media capitalize on this argument even if many many Chinese/Asian parents came out with different opinions on parenting. It is sad to see "no play dates, no sleep over, etc." become the most quoted words by the media in this excerpt from someone's memoir of her family life, despite Chua's disclaimer that this article is not intended to be parenting guidelines for anyone. I am afraid many readers/commentators totally miss the point of this article and see this as a challenge to their personal parenting style or even worse, attack on the Western "superior-in many commentators' opinion" way of parenting. It is sad to see many comments are generating this number counting competition about which culture produces more "successful" individuals while we may all disagree on what success is to every one of us.
Words are flat. We can't see the multi-faceted reality through the words in Chua's article or the comments. From the words, we may see Chua as a harsh, extreme mother, a dramatic, one dimensional figure. We don't see her tender sides, her relationship with her daughters, her daughters' take on her parenting style. She was considered as the "worst person ever born, ever" by a Russian media commentator. She is dehumanized by many.
The outcome of all the argument came down to a few thousand more clicks to WSJ's website, one of the best sellers for Chua, and lots of emotions among the readers, none of which produces any intellectual insight into the reality. Why don't we take a hard look into our education system, our daily interaction with our children, the outlook of the economy, the reality of globalization, and then work on the definition of "success" for us and our children first before we let our emotion takes the control of the argument.
According to David Brooks from New York Times, sleep overs and play dates produce the opportunities to hone in negotiation and people reading skills. Apparently, most of us didn't have enough play time to be sophisticated enough to read and interpret Chua's article and her/media's intention. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008347 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008347
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 17:30:49 GMT
Felicity Tao wrote "I would blame WSJ for polarizing this issue by using that provoking title and making this a &..." "Hard work, persistence, no patience for excuses: whether Chinese or American, that sounds like a prescription for success with which it's very difficult to argue. "
Tiger Moms: Is Tough Parenting Really the Answer?
An article posted in "Time" http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,2043313,00.html
Just a example to get your attention:
"If our economy suffers by comparison with China's, so does our system of primary and secondary education. That became clear in December, when the latest test results from the Program for International Student Assessment (PISA) were released. American students were mired in the middle: 17th in reading, 23rd in science and 31st in math — 17th overall. For the first time since PISA began its rankings in 2000, students in Shanghai took the test — and they blew everyone else away, achieving a decisive first place in all three categories. When asked to account for the results, education experts produced a starkly simple explanation: Chinese students work harder, with more focus, for longer hours than American students do. It's true that students in boomtown Shanghai aren't representative of those in all of China, but when it comes to metrics like test scores, symbolism matters. ..."
If you are a golf fan, you may have noticed that "Asian Women Dominate the LPGA Tour". But why?
“…The Asian girls do most likely spend more time at the game growing up, as they are mandated by their parents to do so, and we all know about the Asian work ethic.”
“ … When Asian parents get their children into golf, it isn't to see if they like it or want to continue with it, but rather it is chosen as their pursuit in life. The children don't have a say in the matter, and in following with the timeless virtue of 'filial piety', they are unquestioningly obedient to their parents' choice for them. The children don't make big decisions for themselves, and don't voice opinions on the matter. Perhaps there is too much freedom here in America, with too many choices for adolescents and time wasted in their second-guessing and doubting. Over there it is just about the brass tacs of doing and going forward. …”
@ http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/5751520/why_asian_women_dominate_the_lpga_tour.html?cat=14
If you are a tennis fan, you may have also noticed that “U.S. Tennis Losing Ground in Developing Top Players” -- look at the current Australian Open, there is no American (men or women) left after 4th round at Australian Open.
But, why? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008235 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008235
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 16:45:01 GMT
Lucy Yang wrote ""Hard work, persistence, no patience for excuses: whether Chinese or American, that sounds ..." Many communist countries refused to let talent be wasted..
Think Russian and East German Athletes in the 60s and 70s...
How did that work out?
Culturally, we allow people to develop or not develop their talents..
One of the costs of freedom... You want it, you get it, you don't want to put in the effort?
No MIT or Harvard Yard or NBA or NFL etc etc etc.
Seems fair to me...
A man convinced against his will is unconvinced still...
What are Tiger Moms afraid of...
failure? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008217 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008217
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 16:36:48 GMT
Frank Venuti wrote "Many communist countries refused to let talent be wasted..Think Russian and East ..." Was Bill Gates a C student in high school? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008140 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2008140
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 16:02:46 GMT
Vicky Wu wrote "Was Bill Gates a C student in high school?" Is Bill Gates creative and imaginative or not in your opinion. Please read a bio of Bill Gates if you think not and notice the parenting style of his parents. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007698 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007698
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 13:50:03 GMT
Ravel Twig wrote "Is Bill Gates creative and imaginative or not in your opinion. Please read a bio of Bill ..." OFF THE FARM - We forget that the U.S. education system was based on producing factory and office workers. Summer vacation was so kids could go back and harvest. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007590 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007590
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 11:35:11 GMT
Robert Dunn wrote "OFF THE FARM - We forget that the U.S. education system was based on producing factory and ..." ANGER - Hi Stephannie. I read the article from the link. It's a pretty tragic situation. I don't know, however, if it was just the strict parenting style that did it or the mention of her starting to experiment with drugs. The availability of drugs in America is just crazy and we seem to have the most cases of crazy young people shooting others and this tremendous amount of anger. I don't really know where this all comes from, but it does sadly seem very very contemporary "American." http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007589 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007589
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 11:33:36 GMT
Robert Dunn wrote "ANGER - Hi Stephannie. I read the article from the link. It's a pretty tragic ..." INBRED - for sure we don't need Lehman's Bro. or you either in America! Maybe you're out of a job? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007581 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007581
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 11:23:40 GMT
Robert Dunn wrote "INBRED - for sure we don't need Lehman's Bro. or you either in America! ..." WIRED - let's dig into this. I don't think there is anything hard-wired about a focus on education, which I think is the crux of an Asian upbringing. Of course everybody's DNA is built from their parents, so we can't ignore that. For example, I'm pretty sure all the Olympic 100-meter sprinters have tremendous work ethics, but there's always a winner, first, second, third, as a result of additional factors like luck and genetics. But we can all be assured that without all three, one is very unlikely to be in the Olympics.
So what in your opinion are "Chinese" hard-wired traits? And I must ask how does the Protestant work ethic, American boot-straps ethos, and Edison's 1% luck and 99% perspiration approach fit into your ideas? I don't think Ms. Chau's descriptions differ much from the previous three just mentioned, hence I don't think it's enriching to apply a stereotypical label like "Chinese" to it. Especially, when America is in such a xenophobic state right now. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007577 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007577
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 11:17:04 GMT
Robert Dunn wrote "WIRED - let's dig into this. I don't think there is anything hard-wired about a ..." I think obviously most of kids don't have such a strong nerve like Amy Chua's kids to take such a strict parenting way. They prefer to live with high self-esteem nurtured by our constant spoiling and non-stop praising.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007463 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007463
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 07:16:40 GMT
John Mackay wrote "I think obviously most of kids don't have such a strong nerve like ..." "With majority C students in the country, we will have burger flipper and other minimum wage workers, our engineers and scientists are either Asian American or immigrant from countries that value education if we still a good enough country to attract them leave home to come here."
Well, I believe we'll still have plenty of "Western" American engineers and scientists in the future because not every of them is a slacker. But what worries me is that we will have more and more burger flippers while we don't have that many burgers to flip.
The ugly truth is, we are having such a high rate of unemployment but our hi-tech companies are complaining they can't find enough qualified workers in America and have to hire the people from other countries (mostly from India and China). What does it say?
I just pray our kids wouldn't have such an embarrassing situation when they grow up. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007446 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007446
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 07:06:03 GMT
John Mackay wrote ""With majority C students in the country, we will have burger flipper and other ..." The parenting style proposed by Amy Chau requires terrifyingly rare skill to implement successfully, and even then seems to invoke damage along the way. Heaven help the vast majority of normal people trying to execute such a draconian, combative, insult-based power fight of a mine field masquerading as "parenting". http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007445 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007445
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 07:05:52 GMT
John Beaver wrote "The parenting style proposed by Amy Chau requires terrifyingly rare skill to implement ..." So many people here talking about American way of parenting raises independent thinkers, and nurture creativity in children. By living in both China and America, I am not argue this fact. However, not all independent thinking and creativity produce good citizens to the society. Most criminals are independent thinkers and very creative themselves. Teen pregnancy, high school drop out, teen drug, teen gangsters and teen crimes are result of "freedom" and "independent thinking". Currently our national report card is C, while most Americans may not take this serious because the end result has yet to come. Wait until 10-20 years later, these C students enter work force, they are competing against other A students from all over the globe. If C is not enough for America to reform our education system for the best, the later the more difficult to keep up with the pace. Once these C students become parent themselves, how do we expect them to demand academic excellent from their children? With majority C students in the country, we will have burger flipper and other minimum wage workers, our engineers and scientists are either Asian American or immigrant from countries that value education if we still a good enough country to attract them leave home to come here. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007417 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007417
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 06:41:14 GMT
Sue Gu wrote "So many people here talking about American way of parenting raises ..." Grace, you've already wasted your time. Me too...:-) But it's amusing, isn't it? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007398 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007398
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 06:18:52 GMT
John Mackay wrote "Grace, you've already wasted your time. Me too...:-) But it's amusing, isn't it?..." When I see people like you and your wife, I understand why America is so difficult to manage as a country. We disrespect our teacher, pay them low wage, but expect them take abuse from parent that raise their kid by TV and video game. America is fortunate to have teach like Rob Miles. If he get out of teaching by fed up on parent like you, America's future will be real tragedy. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007389 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007389
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 06:09:19 GMT
Sue Gu wrote "When I see people like you and your wife, I understand ..." I certainly don't agree anybody is superior, but if one is not a fool, he would agree that hard work pays off.
However, not everybody is willing to do hard work, right? Actually most of us would rather enjoying life, which is the human nature. We Americans are the people who consider ourselves very humane. We only do everything by human nature. So no surprise we only like enjoying life and that's why we have 14 TRILLION national debt piling up. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007383 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007383
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 06:04:07 GMT
John Mackay wrote "I certainly don't agree anybody is superior, but if one is not a fool, he would ..." What makes you think the definition of being successful is "going to ivy League school" ? As long as any individual can reach to their best potential, then he/she is successful. If a person can get A+, why settle down at a- or B+? When a person can only get a C and reach at C, that is great too. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007375 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007375
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 05:55:37 GMT
Cathy Coven wrote "What makes you think the definition of being successful is "going to ivy ..." Actually no surprise at all, if you see how averagely our kids are being educated and raised. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007371 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007371
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 05:52:16 GMT
John Mackay wrote "Actually no surprise at all, if you see how averagely our kids are being ..." and business world as well. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007361 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007361
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 05:47:24 GMT
John Mackay wrote "and business world as well." I am so glad to see your comments and am totally agree with you. I showed this article to my daughter who is 18. We don't think putting energy and effort to help your kid to reach their best is wrong, too many people were offend by this article only because this article compares the Chinese parenting style vs the Western parenting style. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007356 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007356
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 05:45:33 GMT
Cathy Coven wrote "I am so glad to see your comments and am totally agree with ..." As long as China can benefit from America's creativity, there is not much desire to create on her own. America's short sighted consumers and government will allow this keep going until China has enough money to foreclosure America. If that time ever came(20 years later), I don't know how Chinese is going to do with these spoiled, entitled, lazy and incompetent Americans: They have no skills because they don't want to learn, only few jobs in America can make a living by playing sports and video game, they don't want to work because they trained life suppose fun, but they have plenty of self-esteem and expect praise for whatever they do, they claimed to be creative thinkers but have no clue how to solve problem in their broken political system, never tried anything five feet from constitution and civil rights, they watched their parent got rich by sueing the school for not treat their kids right by giving too much homework their kids can't complete, they took this to their adulthood to sue anyone when their life hit the fence, in their mind it's always someone else fault.
Will be all Americans like that? no there are some smart one: lawyer keep finding things wrong in life to encourage people solve problem by suing each other. Doctors are migrated to overseas because no one can afford to pay insurance to practice here. Entrepreneurs give majority of of the jobs to China and India thanks to internet and airplane America's invention to make this happen, the only few American they hire are Asian Americans.
China setup a lab to study how a once the greatest nation produce such massive of human garbage, after many man hours research, they found the root: lax parenting style! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007348 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007348
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 05:39:46 GMT
Sue Gu wrote "As long as China can benefit from America's creativity, there is not much desire to create on ..." I hope every "western" kid is like your son. However ... http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007346 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007346
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 05:37:13 GMT
John Mackay wrote "I hope every "western" kid is like your son. However ......" Tell me again why America owes China 2 TRILLION in debt?
How about per capita GDP of China compared to that of USA? 1/5?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007341 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007341
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 05:34:57 GMT
John Mackay wrote "Tell me again why America owes China 2 TRILLION in debt? ..." the founder of Yahoo and the co-founder of Youtube are both Chinese decedents. Don't you think they improve life of others? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007339 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007339
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 05:33:55 GMT
Cathy Coven wrote "the founder of Yahoo and the co-founder of Youtube are both Chinese decedents. Don't you ..." Paul, in one of my previous posts, I asked someone if he knows how the Army trains the best combat soldier. I guess we share the same feeling about this.
But honestly, as you have probably experienced, not everybody can be a good soldier. Many people are just born to be physically incompetent or weak-minded and they can not be trained in such a harsh way. For these people, we should just treat them NICE and let them take some easy works. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007316 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007316
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 05:19:46 GMT
John Mackay wrote "Paul, in one of my previous posts, I asked someone if he knows ..." Individual and national wealth, are you talking about prior 1960? China has 2 trillion foreign reserve, America has 14 trillion debt, individual are broke, state government are broke, federal government to the point of bankruptcy. China has double digit growing rate, we are here losing jobs to China. Yes we have Steve Jobs, he invented new stuffs then the Chinese manufacture it, let the unemployed American to buy it. Yes we have democracy, that's why we can't agree on anything in capital hill. Yes we have freedom, free to buy the house we can't afford and free to sue anyone we want to, free to run up debt and not body care, free to have gun to shoot whatever we want.
America has CHANGED for the worse! China has CHANGED for the better! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007313 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007313
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 05:15:51 GMT
Sue Gu wrote "Individual and national wealth, are you talking about prior 1960? China has ..." But they founded Yahoo, Baidu, Youtube. Stereotype is a poison that only grows ignorance.
The discussion should not be about revenge by beating or belittling each other. The discussion should be comprehensible and rational. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007289 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007289
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 04:56:29 GMT
John Mackay wrote "But they founded Yahoo, Baidu, Youtube. Stereotype is a poison that only grows ignorance. The discussion ..." Very good point. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007273 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007273
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 04:46:38 GMT
Diane Chen wrote "Very good point." "But really this isn't about race -- it's about parenting. In order to really test Amy's premise we would first need to find out what constitutes success beyond high school (Here I'm assuming she would say it's being in a powerful and/or respected position with a high salary). Then we would need to know what parenting methods the tech CEOs experienced -- possibly Tony Hsieh was raised with more western approach for example."
Michael,
I am glad that you agree this is not about race -- its about parenting style. I along with most of the Asian/Chinese Mothers whom I know strongly disagree with her extreme parenting style. Deprive your children food and water until they can play a piece of music perfectly is NOT a parenting style, it IS child abuse.
What makes me very angry is that she has no right to call her parenting style "Chinese Mother's" parenting style. I can assure you that she doesn't represent most of Chinese-American Mothers or Chinese Mothers in China. What makes me more angry is that WSJ has no right to put the word "superior" in the title. What is the definition of "superior parenting style" anyway? I don't think that you can ever call one parenting style superior than the other because each child is born so differently, you can never use the same parenting style for children born to the same parents. Based on my own parenting experience, you should parent each child based on him or her own personality. I am glad that I wasn't raised like how Amy Chua was raised because I had no musical talent what so ever. Then again, may be that is why I am not a Yale professor and not making a lots of money at the expense of her own race.
What makes me very sad and disappointed is so many people wrote so many racist comments here about Chinese-Americans and Asian-Americans. We have no platform to voice our opinions. We are all condemned because one so called Chinese.
"Also, I really don't know why it would be an insult to say that nearly all computer science students are non-white. That's just the way it is. 10% is an exaggeration, but at the top CS schools, it's certainly overwhelmingly non-white."
Michael,
I don't know now. But, when I was working in the computer field years ago, 80% of our department were white. May be it's because the geographic location.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007258 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007258
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 04:40:29 GMT
Diane Chen wrote ""But really this isn't about race -- it's about parenting. In order to really test ..." I am sure you don't know who's Leon Chua.
He is a world famous scientist widely recognized as the Father of nonlinear circuit theory and cellular neural networks. He is also the inventor and namesake of Chua's circuit and was the first to conceive the theories behind, and postulate the existence of, the solid state memristor.
Would you think he is just a robot who doesn't have creativity to invent or discover anything?
Well, he happens to be a Chinese American, and Amy Chua's father. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007171 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007171
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 03:56:08 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "I am sure you don't know who's Leon Chua. He is a ..." Grace, with all due respect, you're reducing a wide-ranging set of poverty issues to "money", throwing in some personal anecdotes and high school grudges. There are more factors that go into LAUSDs poverty rates than low income: high rates of domestic violence, high rates of sexual abuse, poor nutrition in the home, high rates of drug use, low adult literacy are just a few. There is no arguing with the statistics. Kids learn in the home just as much as at school.
You are right - many of those kids you now judge for "having fun and partying" were doing just that and wasting precious time (and frankly some kids who partied also now lead productive, successful lives). But others were behind the scenes trying to deal with a kind of home environment most of us wouldn't wish on our worst enemy - at best, unsupportive of education, at worst a complete hindrance. Things are not always what they seem, especially when you're a teenager. It is a shame that you seem to have a block about admitting some kids in poor areas had it tougher than most and that might have impacted their progress in life - and it is patently untrue. I see the extreme version of that attitude here in Beijing all the time - the kids of China's new middle class routinely dismiss the poor as lazy fools. It is far more difficult to dig a little deeper, look at root causes and admit some collective moral responsibility to work for the betterment of your community and not just judge those whose lives you have not experienced (now I'm sounding like Oprah ...). http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007106 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007106
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 03:23:53 GMT
Paul Flynn wrote "Grace, with all due respect, you're reducing a wide-ranging set of poverty ..." Though I am not Asian, I highly recommend this Asian way of parenting. Both of my daughters benefited from a love of learning, repetition , practice , practice and more practice starting as toddlers. Both memorized great lengths of poetry by age 2 with explanations by me for them when needed.. Frost, Dickens, in the car, in the home.. Ali was playing Mozart minuets by age 4 with both hands.. Barclay learning on her own Edgar Allan Poe by age 7..complete poems in one evening.. no longer needing my prodding. And both of them only had AP classes in high school.. no need to waste time with frivolous classes.
Now Ali is in her 5th year of a PhD program with a full scholarship after graduating Phi Beta Kappa from her excellent undergraduate school..Barclay is in Honors pre-med as a senior now, was valedictorian of her competitive high school.
There was a thrill for learning here with them. It starts before they are born with our own habits and continues from then on out.. If done correctly , the experience leads to a lifestyle of learning that will never stop.
I did not say absolutely never to any tv. I researched and taped shows that I found beneficial.. Never allowed them to sit mindlessly watching trash.. As far as computer games, if these increased intelligence, math skills , hand eye coordination, foreign language skills, well, they must stand on value here.
All in all I commend this mother and her tried and true methods.. False praise sets low expectations and does nothing to increase skills. If people do not want to parent in this way, then perhaps they could do us favors and not reproduce.. parenting is hard work if done correctly.
debra reece simons, asheville, nc http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007073 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007073
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 03:06:41 GMT
debra reece simons wrote "Though I am not Asian, I highly recommend this Asian way of parenting. ..." At what point are we as readers allowed to criticize a mother and her method of parenting a child. She is feeding her children. She is educating her children. She is providing a home for her children. She is offering her children opportunities millions of children would love to take- be it to learn to play the violin, play the violin or even have a mother who has the time and patience to motivate their child. Chua sounds like an awesome mom to me. She cares for her children rather than neglects them.
If anyone is shocked by the content of this article, it is that they are offended by her comparisons of Western parents to Chinese ones. Although I say this, she did clearly state that she is using these terms loosely, as that they refer to types of parenting not race.
If you are wondering who I am and how I can have such an opinion. I am 17 year old Asian American. I was born here and I find that I rather have a mother who cares than a mother who neglects their child. Before anyone attacks me, I am not saying that Western parents neglect their child. I am merely arguing that there is no reason for anyone to criticize the parenting method of Chua. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007057 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007057
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 03:01:55 GMT
Jennifer Uang wrote "At what point are we as readers allowed to criticize a mother and her method of parenting a ..." Maybe you should learn a little about history. There was such thing a thing called communism in China, and you cannot blame the people of China for communism, you can only blame corrupt leaders. In China's case it was Mao Zedong. His reign left 100s of millions of Chinese in poverty. It is actually amazing the rate at which China is pulling people out of poverty, so your statement of "Tell me again why the per capita GDP of China is about half that of Mexico" is not at all relevant.
Additionally, you should also consider the reason why Asians are being red-lined in Ivy Leagues and other top universities. It is not because there is a higher population of Asians in America. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007026 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007026
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 02:44:51 GMT
Jennifer Uang wrote "Maybe you should learn a little about history. There was such thing a thing called ..." It boils down to people spending their time inefficiently. The students that put in the time and worked hard went on to college and did something with their lives. And the ones that valued having fun and partying did not.
Growing up, kids made fun of me for being Chinese, for getting good grades, and for not ever getting in trouble with the teachers. In short, following the rules. The reason why the statistics are the way they are in the LAUSD schools is that, on average, the students do not care about school. They don't care about learning. And they don't care about their future. It's not poverty. It's their attitude and their lack of good values.
While my older sister graduated valedictorian of her class, my younger sister barely graduated from high school. My younger sister simply did not care about school, she did not care about her future, her friends had the same attitude. She's not appreciative nor grateful for what she has.
So, trust me. It's not a money problem. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. The horse has to want to drink the water. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007009 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007009
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 02:35:23 GMT
Grace Cheung wrote "It boils down to people spending their time inefficiently. The students that put in the time and worked ..." In the authors own words "There would first be a screaming, hair-tearing explosion" that does not qualify as being upset.
And you don't put children on Ritalin when their parents are acting abusive http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007000 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2007000
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 02:30:07 GMT
Heidi Seifert wrote "In the authors own words "There would first be a screaming, hair-tearing explosion" that ..." I do not agree with this parenting stlye--it is way too strict. I am not a parent myself at age 23, 24 in one month, but the children whom my DH and I will one day constitute my thoughts at all times when I am not at my studies. I have plans, imaginations how DH and I will raise our children. I would love for my little daughter(s) to attend ballet, play an instrument--I really like the organ and the harp. For our little boys, playing an instrument would also be really nice, I would like our children to be in a chorus as well. I also like horsebackriding and if circusmtances permit, we would sign up the children for that.
However, I will not have a nervous breakdown if my child never makes it to "Carnegie Hall". Instead, I would love to bring my little children over to the forest, by the lake, to show them the little animals, the trees, the ecosystem, we would talk about these kinds of topics with books which portray these kinds of things, so they understand where they are in this world. Also, my DH and I would show our little the stars and constellations such as the Orion, Lyra, Draco, Triangulum, Puppis, Pyxis, and on, so they would understand where they are in this Galaxy, and Universe from the Astronomy book I have purchsed at my university last year for them, for that purpose.
I would never like to yell at my child(ren), that would sincerely hurt my soul. I will tell my future DH that would hurt really hurt my insides if children are harshly yelled at for no reason. I want my children to understand what they did wrong, etc. by calmly explaining it to them, with sitting them on my lap, or my DH's lap. Emotions are powerful. Showing love and understanding is powerful.
Anyway, these are my ideas, plans, and imaginations, I do not what the future holds because I am not a parent yet. However, I am going to use my ideas, imaginations, and plans for parenting because I will they constitute a large part of who I am.
Best,
sif bjork http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006969 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006969
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 02:07:59 GMT
sif bjork wrote "I do not agree with this parenting stlye--it is way too strict. I am not a ..." I do not agree with this parenting stlye--it is way too strict. I am not a parent myself at age 23, 24 in one month, but the children whom my DH and I will one day constitute my thoughts at all times when I am not at my studies. I have plans, imaginations how DH and I will raise our children. I would love for my little daughter(s) to attend ballet, play an instrument--I really like the organ and the harp. For our little boys, playing an instrument would also be really nice, I would like our children to be in a chorus as well. I also like horsebackriding and if circusmtances permit, we would sign up the children for that.
However, I will not have a nervous breakdown if my child never makes it to "Carnegie Hall". Instead, I would love to bring my little children over to the forest, by the lake, to show them the little animals, the trees, the ecosystem, we would talk about these kinds of topics with books which portray these kinds of things, so they understand where they are in this world. Also, my DH and I would show our little the stars and constellations such as the Orion, Lyra, Draco, Triangulum, Puppis, Pyxis, and on, so they would understand where they are in this Galaxy, and Universe from the Astronomy book I have purchsed at my university last year for them, for that purpose.
I would never like to yell at my child(ren), that would sincerely hurt my soul. I will tell my future DH that would hurt really hurt my insides if children are harshly yelled at for no reason. I want my children to understand what they did wrong, etc. by calmly explaining it to them, with sitting them on my lap, or my DH's lap. Emotions are powerful. Showing love and understanding is powerful.
Anyway, these are my ideas, plans, and imaginations, I do not what the future holds because I am not a parent yet. However, I am going to use my ideas, imaginations, and plans for parenting because I will they constitute a large part of who I am.
Best,
sif bjork http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006968 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006968
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 02:07:48 GMT
sif bjork wrote "I do not agree with this parenting stlye--it is way too strict. I am not a ..." The world certainly does not want to be full of these people. It would be CHAOTIC... ... ... ... ... Mandy, you sure hit it all. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006963 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006963
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 02:03:33 GMT
Ravel Twig wrote "The world certainly does not want to be full of these people. It would be CHAOTIC... ... ... ... ... Mandy, you ..." Can't you flip the coin, turn the page and look at it another way?? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006962 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006962
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 02:02:26 GMT
Ravel Twig wrote "Can't you flip the coin, turn the page and look at it another way??" Nice, pick out all the B's and A-minuses. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006961 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006961
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 02:01:11 GMT
Ravel Twig wrote "Nice, pick out all the B's and A-minuses." So.. you're going bomb out your children like what happened to Germany in WWI? Is that really what you want? I really hope your children can have some type of happy life... http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006959 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006959
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 01:59:48 GMT
Ravel Twig wrote "So.. you're going bomb out your children like what happened to ..." The author of this article is being way too stereotypical in both "chinese" and "western" ways, and so are 70% of the comments... http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006950 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006950
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 01:56:47 GMT
Ravel Twig wrote "The author of this article is being way too stereotypical in both "chinese" and "..." and Parents? You're completely ___ (please insert an appropriate word of your choice) topic. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006946 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006946
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 01:54:55 GMT
Ravel Twig wrote "and Parents? You're completely ___ (please insert an appropriate word of your choice) topic...." Stereotypical of you, aren't you?? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006935 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006935
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 01:51:50 GMT
Ravel Twig wrote "Stereotypical of you, aren't you??" Why are you wasting your time to type this comment when you can be spending time elsewhere, especially if you THINK it IS a WASTE of time... ? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006931 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006931
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 01:51:01 GMT
Ravel Twig wrote "Why are you wasting your time to type this comment when you can be ..." Does this represent true success? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006921 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006921
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 01:47:54 GMT
Ravel Twig wrote "Does this represent true success?" I agree, just getting A's does not mean success, nor does performing at Carnegie Hall represent success. Success is when the person accomplishes something for society in a happy and self-willing way, not via force. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006918 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006918
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 01:45:43 GMT
Ravel Twig wrote "I agree, just getting A's does not mean success, nor does performing at ..." ...So your every child gives up on 1+1=2, gives up on A,B,C,D,E...X,Y,Z, when they are first taught those and do nothing for society except use up resources to play video games?? Not giving up is a very important part of education, but, maybe this method of approach is a little outrageous. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006913 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006913
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 01:41:46 GMT
Ravel Twig wrote "...So your every child gives up on 1+1=2, gives ..." If someone is bothered to tell why, you may not be able to understand. Do some reading first. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006909 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006909
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 01:41:15 GMT
Yige Bosi wrote "If someone is bothered to tell why, you may not be able to understand. Do some ..." ...also, in fact, capitalism does, in the end result in socialism, communism is just another way to look at it. And don't you think that the poverty and other things also have their alternate roots. Don't use these to back your thoughts. Although freedom, individualism, etc. are/is great. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006898 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006898
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 01:36:36 GMT
Ravel Twig wrote "...also, in fact, capitalism does, in the end result in socialism, communism is just another ..." Not surprising to me. As a member of 75th Rangers, elite soldiers trained as tough as can be, I DO AGREE, children need to be challenged, molded and trained to be the best they should be to realize their FULL POTENTIAL.
They got the rest of their lives to goof off, be creative and smoke pot if they want. THAT'S how we became a great nation. None of that "let em do what they want" philosophy of the 60's and 70's. So we are losing ground to the rest of the world. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006888 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006888
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 01:30:00 GMT
Paul Shmidt wrote "Not surprising to me. As a member of 75th Rangers, elite soldiers trained as tough as can be, ..." All Amy is talking about is about her, not "Chinese Moms" in US. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006858 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006858
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 01:14:59 GMT
David Wu wrote "All Amy is talking about is about her, not "Chinese Moms" in US...." I don't know what to say. I will never raise my children like this and my mum never did this to me.
I am flabbergasted. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006854 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006854
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 01:13:51 GMT
Yong Wen Chua wrote "I don't know what to say. I will never raise my children ..." Grace, that is all very admirable but, I'm sorry, I still don't see your point and your argument is spurious. No one is denying that success requires hard work, discipline and initiative. You learned that at home as did I. Most people in your community clearly didn't. Your own LAUSD statistics support that.
You undermine your own reasoning by saying look at my life and look at Paris Hilton and then in the same breath say rich people are more likely to do well and only 50 percent of your class finished school. That only proves the point that isolated stories of success or failure are meaningless to overall trends.
There is an endemic problem with education (and in this I include training in the value of hard work and fiscal discipline) in poorer communities of the US. Social mobility in the US is decreasing. Of course, individual responsibility plays a role but why is this problem so great in the community where you grew up and not so great in Paris Hilton's? You cannot simply sweep away the issue by saying it all boils down to lazy, unmotivated people buying cars and phones they can't afford.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006846 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006846
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 01:09:52 GMT
Paul Flynn wrote "Grace, that is all very admirable but, I'm sorry, I still don't see ..." Tell me again why the per capita GDP of China is about half that of Mexico? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006814 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006814
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 00:50:58 GMT
Mark Leibman wrote "Tell me again why the per capita GDP of China is about half that of ..." Really interesting piece of garbage this "tiger mother-monster" book....This is exactly the reason why Chinese parenting style will produce excellent...robots, the machines, not people, who can think freely, dream freely, be free-spirited and found Google, Facebook, invent thousands of new things and improve life of others. Not surprisingly, people like american lifestyle and that is why Ms. Chua lives in America, not in China. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006786 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006786
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 00:37:09 GMT
Sea Gull wrote "Really interesting piece of garbage this "tiger mother-monster" book....This is exactly the ..." As WSJ is changing to an average news paper from a business focused paper, change in the demographics of its subscribers is expected. But change in reading comprehensive skill of its subscribers to this level is a little surprise. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006736 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006736
Sun, 23 Jan 2011 00:18:45 GMT
David Wu wrote "As WSJ is changing to an average news paper from a business focused paper, change in the ..." I understand. You don't know world history. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006622 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006622
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 23:22:17 GMT
Diane Chen wrote "I understand. You don't know world history." I thought Karl Marx was a German. Thanks for letting everybody know that he was a Chinese. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006610 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006610
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 23:18:34 GMT
Diane Chen wrote "I thought Karl Marx was a German. Thanks for letting everybody know that he was a ..." After reading this article, one has to wonder what Amy Chua's eldest daughter is doing now. I wonder if Ms. Chua, and her result-oriented parenting, got her daughter into an Ivy League school. Going to an Ivy is not the epitome of success but for the woman who considers an A- to be bad, why would she be settling for anything else? If her daughter is not going to an Ivy, then it leads to the question of whether Ms. Chua's extreme parenting was "successful". http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006604 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006604
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 23:17:04 GMT
kala maturi wrote "After reading this article, one has to wonder what Amy Chua's eldest ..." I think the author is lucky that her children have good gene that they could take the pressures (peel pressure, parent pressure, etc.) and came through without mental problem or extreme personality under their “tiger mother’s guidance”. Her way of raising her children is NOT applicable to ALL children. Each child is unique in his/her character and tolerance toward the pressures (pear pressure, parent pressure, etc.) he/she faces in life.
As a Chinese from Taiwan, I have a lot of friends with the same background. Most of us were raised in families with a "strict" even "tiger" parent. Thus, when we became parents, we tended to be very "strict" even "tiger" in raising our children, because this was the only role model we have as parents. Most of us demand perfect school performance as the major requirement to our children. We also push our children to learn one or two music instruments, not because they are interested in the instruments but because we missed the opportunity to learn them when we were in the age. We think all we did were to the goodness of their future.
Because of most parents put high priority in academic achievement on our children’s shoulder, high percentage of our next generation appear to get into the top universities when they finish high school. However, not every one of them made it through very well like the children of the author. The successful cases always become popular, but very few people talk about the unsuccessful cases or even failures. I have seen quite a few unsuccessful cases, and I myself have a case of failure. Because I had experienced a failure case, some people who had similar problems would come to ask me for advises. That is why I knew more failed cases than others.
I have talked to parents of a very smart girl who went to UC Berkeley. However, at the third year of college she could not take the academic pressure plus high expectations of her father, she ended up to get ‘nerve breakdown’ and went into depression. I have seen a boy who had strong resentment against his father’s ‘tiger ruling’ from his childhood through his high school, he turned out hating his father and refusing to see his father after he grew up. In my opinion, the thought of “Tiger ruling is Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior.” is WRONG. Different individuals responded to such pressures differently.
I think children need discipline when they did something wrong, but we need to tell them why did they receive the punishments and make sure they know we love them. Too bad there is no such a class of PARENTING in college, and each of us has to ‘learn on the job’ of being a parent. After thirty four years of learning to parent, my conclusion is ”The best parents are those whose children are willing to communicate everything in their lives with the parent.” And my advice to new parents is “Be the best friends of your children. If you do not, they will find someone else outside. If they cannot find one outside either, they may get into depression.”
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006556 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006556
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 22:47:51 GMT
Kaung Chang wrote "I think the author is lucky that her children have good gene that they could ..." Why would you want to be common when you can be great? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006522 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006522
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 22:28:39 GMT
Grace Cheung wrote "Why would you want to be common when you can be great?" This is a fantastic article and so true! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006485 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006485
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 22:09:35 GMT
Emma Fonk wrote "This is a fantastic article and so true!" Unfortunately the students of MIT are not as qualified to deal with life's ups and downs on their own as are graduates of other prestigious engineering schools. MIT in fact is nothing but a logjam for donations for under achieving over rated students who commit suicide when faced with difficulties. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006474 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006474
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 22:04:37 GMT
Roxie Kushnick wrote "Unfortunately the students of MIT are not as qualified to deal with life's ups and downs on their own as are graduates of ..." Ms. Chau: If your way is best for everyone, as you imply, I guess we'd have a world with no entertainment, sports, or friendships, and we'd all being listening to strictly violin and piano music. What a shallow, grey, uni-dimensional, Brave New World that would be...
Well, no thanks. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006435 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006435
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 21:43:23 GMT
John Lockhart wrote "Ms. Chau: If your way is best for everyone, as you imply, I guess ..." ...and Western parenting has produced democracy, freedom of expression and creation, individual and national wealth. "Chinese" parenting has produced communism, suppression, blind obedience to authority, individual and national per capita poverty and human holocausts such as the Cultural Revolution. Good job Ms. Chua. Nice work. But I guess you prefer the latter not only for your daughters but for billions of other given "World on Fire:..." http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006418 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006418
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 21:37:56 GMT
John Lockhart wrote "...and Western parenting has produced democracy, freedom of expression and creation, individual and national ..." Wow, thanks for this generalization. You just added so much to this discussion </sarcasm>
While there are such groups as you mention, there are also plenty of Chinese-Americans that have assimilated into the American culture.
There are so many problems with the statement you made that I'm not going to waste my time dissecting it. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006394 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006394
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 21:29:52 GMT
Grace Cheung wrote "Wow, thanks for this generalization. You just added so much to this discussion
I went to school in the LAUSD where 50% of my classmates did not graduate high school & it was a predominantly low income area. The valedictorian of my class, who is still one of my good friends, came from a poor family, but he went on to MIT and graduated with a degree in electrical engineering and computer science. He had even less than I did growing up.
When other kids went out to the mall and movies on the weekends, we ran community service events and organized SAT study sessions, etc. When other kids didn't do their homework and watched hours of TV every day, we stayed up until 2-3AM finishing our homework. We did math problems and read books and studied vocabulary words while everyone else was out partying. That was okay, because we did our fair share of partying when we got to college (I graduated 3rd in my class & went to Berkeley). Yet, we still graduated college 4 years later & received job offers the year the stock market crashed (2008). Did I mention that my friend immigrated from Mexico when he was six year old? And English is a second language for both of us? It really does just take a lot of hard work and a lot of patience. And a lot of not "doing what everyone else is doing." AKA, IT WAS NOT EASY.
Poverty it just an excuse. Also, a lot of "poor" people don't allocate their income very efficiently. How do you think it makes me feel when I walk through the projects in San Francisco and see people driving Escalades and playing on their iPhones--when I drive a 1992 Toyota Camry worth like $2000 and I don't even own a smart phone? Yet, 40% of my income goes to taxes.
People need to learn to take personal responsibility for their outcomes in life. Yes, your parents and your environment play a role in that. And maybe so does your school. But when it comes down to it, it really doesn't matter what your parents do, how much money you have or what school you went to. Lots of children that grow up wealthy don't turn out that well. Look at Paris Hilton. There are plenty of other examples of kids with money that went to great schools, and yet ended up doing drugs, failing out of school, etc. Yes, they are more likely to do well in life, but there are still lots of them that don't do so well even with the most well-intentioned parents. We need to stop making excuses for lazy, unmotivated people.
Amy Chua's children now understand that it takes a lot of initiative, time and practice, a lot of sweat and tears, to master something, whether it's an instrument or a sport or an academic subject. This is critical later in life when you're working in the real world. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006370 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006370
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 21:21:53 GMT
Grace Cheung wrote "Paul, correlation is just that. I still don't believe that poverty is a huge problem. ..." You paint Chinese families with a broad brush...and by that I mean no Chinese student in my childrens school makes as good of grades or plays their instrument as well as my western son. If they had time for sports -he would kick their butt there too. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006252 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006252
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 20:42:20 GMT
Ken Dunbar wrote "You paint Chinese families with a broad brush...and by that I mean no Chinese student in ..." You know, 'comfortable' is a very interesting word. Doing something that you like while trying to be the best at it can often be both 'comfortable' and frustrating. Of course if money is how you define comfort, your argument works very well, but there are some pretty rich people out there who are simply addicted to anti anxiety pills, too. Or beat their wives (also rich, no?).
I'm not an expert on Shakespeare and am not interested in being one, but it doesn't sound all that bad. A world with iPhones, moon explorations, full stomachs, and no Shakespeare? Blah! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006182 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006182
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 20:17:44 GMT
pick apie wrote "You know, 'comfortable' is a very interesting word. Doing something that you like ..." . http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006162 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006162
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 20:09:21 GMT
Gloria Leong wrote "." Conversations with a so-called "Chinese Mother" (although the definition is loose ;p):
Piano teacher: Maybe you should have your son listen to more classical music so that he grows accustomed to it and maybe enjoy it a little bit more?
Parent: Oh.
Piano teacher: Maybe start with Mozart?
Parent: Oh, I've never listened to Mozart.
Piano teacher: But you seem so enthusiastic about him taking piano lessons.
Parent: I'd really like it if he could teach someday and make some money teaching piano while in college.
Piano teacher: Oh.
That same parent: Why do you always make mistakes when you're playing the piano?
Student: Because I'm practicing.
Parent: You still can't do it! I spend so much money on your lessons.
(It had only been 2 minutes. A pianist who has performed at Carnegie Hall sometimes spend 2 hours on 2 little bars, right?)
Amy Chue, you're not a typical "Chinese Mother" (although I'm still not sure what that means), and you're not even a typical person. Come on, Love. How many percent of the world's population have even stepped foot on your little campus in New Haven? Or just as nice little campuses everywhere around the world? Please, please, don't encourage your methods of parenting without a disclaimer on the 1st page, IN CAPITAL LETTERS.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006153 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006153
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 20:05:17 GMT
pick apie wrote "Conversations with a so-called "Chinese Mother" (although the definition is loose ;p):..." One of the best comments that I have read in this forum. Well-written and heartfelt.
Please accept my best wishes. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006150 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006150
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 20:04:01 GMT
Fred Smith wrote "One of the best comments that I have read in this forum. Well-written and heartfelt...." If what this mother say is true, with about a billion chinese on this earth, I have yet to find a chinese person, like the brain of Einstein, Gates, Buffet, Martin Luther King Jr., Patton, MacArthur, Washington, Lincoln, Earhart, or other great men or women of this great The United States of America. I would also like to know who taught this author at Harvard. Are they chinese or Americans or combinations? By the way, china did not became rich because of the business acumen of the chinese. It is because the american corporations put up their companies for cheap labor. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006143 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006143
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 20:00:32 GMT
felimon soria wrote "If what this mother say is true, with about a billion chinese on this earth, I have ..." By the way, could the WSJ PLEASE change their "community" software to something that keeps up with comments? Any time an article receives more than 100 comments the software chokes on tracking replies. This thread has 7140 responses so far and he software is only allowing me to view 3382 of them, 10 at a time, and can only back up 50 at a time.
Also, there are commentators who you'd like to permanently look at, or receive an email alert when they post something, while there are bloviators you'd like to permanently filter, or killfile, (Barrie Harrop). http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006084 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006084
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 19:39:19 GMT
Scott Packard wrote "By the way, could the WSJ PLEASE change their "community" software to something that keeps ..." I think she was being sarcastic. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006052 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006052
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 19:25:40 GMT
pick apie wrote "I think she was being sarcastic." What if Amy Chua had twins??? :D http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006037 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2006037
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 19:16:52 GMT
pick apie wrote "What if Amy Chua had twins??? :D" too NOT to
thier NOT their
effects (noun) NOT affects (verb)
intrinsic NOT intrisic
Dear Ryan, you simply do not have what it takes to be a "Chinese Mother". Don't try Amy Chua's methods at home. Chaos will ensue. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2005981 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2005981
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 19:00:39 GMT
pick apie wrote "too NOT tothier NOT theireffects (noun) NOT affects (verb)intrinsic NOT intrisicDear Ryan, ..." But a friend of mine were brought up the way Amy Chua's kids were. She was told she was fat, that she was stupid, and her head was banged against her desk frequently to 'encourage' studying. She tried committing suicide at 21, never finished college, and is in and out of abusive relationships with men. And here's the clincher: her IQ test shows that she is far from stupid. So you see, each child needs a unique approach, or Amy Chua's, as long as the child's parents are as intelligent (although twisted), and have some sense of humor (although equally twisted). http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2005973 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2005973
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 18:56:19 GMT
pick apie wrote "But a friend of mine were brought up the way Amy Chua's kids were. ..." great comparison-celebritiy children, and how about those little girls in the pagent contests! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2005932 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2005932
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 18:41:57 GMT
Vanessa symmons wrote "great comparison-celebritiy children, and how about those little girls in the pagent ..." while all of those accomplishments look wonderful on the surface, they aren't high on the list of what makes people happy. The correlating stress of this push to achieve causes its own set of problems, as Alyssa testified to above in her honest post. I'd much rather have a child with "balance" : extacurricular, as in sports and music; academic, as in grades and learning; and relationships with peers. When this gets out of tilt with too much emphasis in any one area, you have lost happiness (and success) in my opinion. Much as I chafe against it, the ole "everything in moderation" seems to work in the long run...
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2005922 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2005922
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 18:38:58 GMT
Vanessa symmons wrote "while all of those accomplishments look wonderful on the surface, they aren't high on the list of ..." while all of those accomplishments look wonderful on the surface, they aren't high on the list of what makes people happy. The correlating stress of this push to achieve causes its own set of problems, as Alyssa testified to above in her honest post. I'd much rather have a child with "balance" : extacurricular, as in sports and music; academic, as in grades and learning; and relationships with peers. When this gets out of tilt with too much emphasis in any one area, you have lost happiness (and success) in my opinion. Much as I chafe against it, the ole "everything in moderation" seems to work in the long run...
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2005920 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2005920
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 18:38:42 GMT
Vanessa symmons wrote "while all of those accomplishments look wonderful on the surface, they aren't high on the list of ..." What I meant was not about meeting minds etc., but try to adopt the good parts from both side of parenting, get rid of the methods not working well. That is the most difficult part to do as a parent, because each child is a different individual. The good way happened in the middle ground. It needs to understand a child well, good analytical skills, knows when to encourage/push, and when to stop/quit. The reason I wrote it, because I read so many other comments were too emotional, did not think deep. Good thinking will help us to improve ourselves.
Sorry for a very late reply. Have been busy.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2005852 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2005852
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 18:12:08 GMT
Abby Jiang wrote "What I meant was not about meeting minds etc., but try to adopt the good ..." Understandably, you hold discontent to the Chinese due to your experiences of exclusion and oppression. There is always that one group of people in almost every culture that holds itself superior to any other culture. While I'm not denying that this concept of superiority is renowned and widely present in the Chinese culture, there do exist individuals of Chinese descent who oppose this (such as myself); thus, it's inaccurate to classify ALL Chinese people as demeaning and pretentious. I'm so sorry for everything you've experienced. Although I can't agree with all your convictions, I can say that you have perfectly justifiable reasons for your anger. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2005839 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2005839
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 18:05:29 GMT
Alyssa L wrote "Understandably, you hold discontent to the Chinese due to your experiences of exclusion and oppression. There is ..." Haha thanks--I think I'm going to study biology before I join the army. Sorry if I sounded pompous in my comment. I promise that I'm not full of myself at all...and that I'm not as weak as you think. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2005789 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2005789
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 17:48:28 GMT
Alyssa L wrote "Haha thanks--I think I'm going to study biology before I ..." All Amy is talking about are "Chinese Moms" in US. Go take a look at the real Chinese moms in China. They spoil their kids like there is no tomorrow, partly due to the one-child policy. The "Chinese" in US are very different from the Chinese in China in pretty every aspects. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2005772 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2005772
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 17:44:02 GMT
JIE CAI wrote "All Amy is talking about are "Chinese Moms" in US. Go take a ..." On Being the Child of a Western "Tiger Mom"
Growing up in the household of a so-called "Tiger Mom" and a loving, enabling father, I can personally attest to the instability of this type of Parent-Child relationship. Being kept on a tight schedule of chores, schoolwork, and extra-curricular activities, I have little time to build friendships or enjoy myself. I essentially cruised through childhood and early adolescence on the praise of my parents and teachers. While I was fairly successful in elementary and middle school, spending high school working with one of the most difficult course loads available, my grades have dropped. Here inlays the failure of the "tough love" system– the child, me, sees the approval from around the house dry up, and with no friendships outside the house to provide support, they become convinced that they are unloved. He or she will look for a manner of rebellion, and where a normal teenager would use piercings, makeup, music, or a more destructive form of dissidence– namely substance abuse, this teen is isolated from all these outlets, and often turns to self-harm.
At this pivotal point, the teen's self confidence is incredibly low. In a family that appraises its children's worth on achievement, the child whose grades have fallen, maybe just from As to Bs, will overlook his or her other talents, other successes, and determine his/herself to be worthless. Some parents, including my own mother, believe the cliché that whatever doesn't kill their children makes them stronger, and so this will eventually make them better resistant to failure, but I beg to differ. At this point, its hard to say how long I can continue before shutting down. Maybe I can do better, maybe if I quit my clubs I could get As again, if I stopped taking honors classes I could finish my chores, but to quit is to fail. I spend from six AM until often as late as two or three AM awake, working on assignments on the week days. Then, weekends, when all I want to do is sleep, I get up around nine AM and do homework and chores, spend until midnight, one, or two finishing everything on sunday night, and then start the week again on monday.
Tiger Parenting is toxic to children, whose main need is love and support. If these parents are diluted enough to believe that they are helping their children by pushing them into the mold of perfection, they couldn't be more wrong. At some point, whether it comes at the beginning of middle school, or upon exiting med school, every child will fail something, at some point, and when the well of parental praise dries, as the parents try every method to push their child back to success, he or she will shut down, will no longer see the point of pushing themselves any further. It's not a parent's job to make their children into superstars, and in fact, it isn't possible. A child will be limited by his or her own potential, and the best way for a parent to enable that is to nurture their child through failures, which are inevitable, and to ensure that a child always knows he's loved. Forget the fads– neither parents nor children are supposed to be perfect. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2005698 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2005698
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 17:21:55 GMT
Julia Griffin wrote "On Being the Child of a Western "Tiger Mom"Growing up in the household of a so-..." Poor girls. Poor Jed http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2005630 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2005630
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 16:57:36 GMT
TAL BEN-SHAHAR wrote "Poor girls. Poor Jed" Sorry for the tardy response. With sincere respect, I emphatically disagree with your accusation that Americans have killed millions of other races. Mr. Yanaga has already answered the American Indian issue. I'll add to the African American issue by saying that our young country only took 80 years to criminalize slavery and less than twice that amount of time to elect an African American to the most powerful position in the world.
However we can agree to disagree on those topics and which of us is digressing to the moral equivalence tactic of debate.
Getting back to relevance, some of the posts in this thread talk of Ms. Chua's brand of Chinese Motherhood as being centuries old. If that's true, it supports my assertion that one should take a second look at its effectiveness, given China's track record during the last 100 years. Even at this moment in time, with almost 4 times as many people, its economy is 1/3 that of the U.S.
I realize China's economy is growing rapidly, however as I said above, that's directly related to its adoption of principles that are more closely associated with freedom rather than oppression. It's also related to the fact that China is a good source of low cost labor for manufacturing and other services. That's fine, however in order for growth to continue, China will have to become more innovative and creative, adding value to its products in the form highly recognizable and desired brands.
With all due respect, while many of the things I own say, "made in China," there's not one Chinese brand I can think of for any good or service I buy...car,?clothing? electronics?
This is China's next challenge; to be innovative, creative, engaging with the consumer and all the things that are making American business resurgent.
I respectfully submit (and admit that's it's just my opinion) that Ms. Chua's brand of Motherhood will not produce adults who can meet this challenge, let alone have the self confidence and courage to break completely from the authoritarianism of Communism. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2005607 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2005607
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 16:51:33 GMT
Michael Malgeri wrote "Sorry for the tardy response. With sincere respect, I emphatically disagree with your accusation that ..." This is all good and great, but have you ever looked at the consequences of the pressure exerted by Asian families on their offspring? Japan, China and South Korea all have some of the highest suicide rates in the world. This is due to the immense societal pressures exerted on the individuals. Although i don't agree with the Asian way of parenting, I also don't approve of Western ideals of putting children on a platter (as many parents don't understand the "give" and "take" approach to parents). Much like the Ying Yang ideology, a balance is what is needed in all aspects of life. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2005524 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2005524
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 16:27:25 GMT
Joshua Stewart wrote "This is all good and great, but have you ever looked at the consequences of the pressure exerted by ..." This is all good and great, but have you ever looked at the consequences of the pressure exerted by Asian families on their offspring? Japan, China and South Korea all have some of the highest suicide rates in the world. This is due to the immense societal pressures exerted on the individuals. Although i don't agree with the Asian way of parenting, I also don't approve of Western ideals of putting children on a platter (as many parents don't understand the "give" and "take" approach to parents). Much like the Ying Yang ideology, a balance is what is needed in all aspects of life. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2005523 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2005523
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 16:27:20 GMT
Joshua Stewart wrote "This is all good and great, but have you ever looked at the consequences of the pressure exerted by ..." I guess you've never heard of Starcraft. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2005490 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2005490
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 16:15:59 GMT
chuanlee lai wrote "I guess you've never heard of Starcraft." My nieces, like professor Chua’s daughters or may be most American mothers with a Chinese root, have full schedules of activities and almost 7 days a week from a piano lesson to Chinese mandarin and swimming lesson as well as other activities. It seems to me that they enjoy themselves in activities arranged by their parents yet I do not know how my sister and brother in law keep the pace with them as they have to take them for all activities.
I do not condone for improperly or harshly language to Ms. Chua’s daughters. It is understandable that parents give their children too much freedom, and they may go wild. We have teens’ pregnancies and living in ghettos, it is not teems’ fault. Children may not tell right from wrong and there is a consequence for their wrongful action. Thus, parents must correct and tell them wrong from right.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2005426 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2005426
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 15:56:50 GMT
Jennie PC Chiang wrote "My nieces, like professor Chua’s daughters or may be most American mothers with a ..." Success should not be measured by the number of A+s on your report card or whether you played at Carnegie Hall. What about emotional intelligence or a well-balanced child? I got straight As growing up but I also have the emotional range of a 3 year old. That said, I do like the fact that Amy Chau unearthed the hidden secrets of a typical Asian upbringing. Most Asians won't go there. I think it needs to be talked about, which is what I am doing on my blog (asianamericanstories.wordpress.com). I am gathering stories about the Asian-American experience. The more we learn about Eastern and Western culture, the more we can extract the good and throw away the bad from both. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2005380 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2005380
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 15:41:59 GMT
Esther Choi wrote "Success should not be measured by the number of A+s on your report card or whether you played at ..." Both methods have been broadcast and applied in both countries. Readers like to distinguish them in improper way. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2005217 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2005217
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 14:55:14 GMT
ROLAND GONG wrote "Both methods have been broadcast and applied in both countries. Readers like to ..." FYI WSJ is scrubbing quite a few comments out. Don't know which ones. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004935 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004935
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 12:53:41 GMT
Jana Chicoine wrote "FYI WSJ is scrubbing quite a few comments out. Don't know which ..." Wow, that says it all. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004932 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004932
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 12:49:20 GMT
Jana Chicoine wrote "Wow, that says it all." Bill Gates was only born in the United States. But when he wanted to materialize his vision or plan he could not find enough engineers in the United States. He then went to China to get enough of them. That is what is happening in many areas right now. This is just a typical example of explaining the differences in results between the two parenting styles, the two education systems, and the two cultures in general: visionary vs diligence; innovation vs skills; creativity vs disciplinary. No parenting style or eduction system can produce the bests on both sides at the same time. So the question should be “Why Chinese moms are superior in producing kids with diligence, skills and disciplinary?”. The equivalent question is “Why western moms are superior in producing kids with visionary, innovation and creativity?” The problem right now is that in both cultures the moms have a tendency to push either side to extreme: Chinese moms are risky at the destruction of kids’ potential in innovation and creativity, while the western moms are risky at not preparing their kids with enough skills to meet challenges in a globalized economy even though a handful visionary and innovative kids with exceptional talents will be produced. Economically this actually puts the west in a disadvantage position in a globalized economy since it is relatively easier for an economy to externally acquire a handful innovative talents than acquired a large number of diligent and disciplinary work force. It is easier for Bill Gates to set up research labs in China than acquire a large number of engineers from China. That is the reason why you see the out-sourcing only in one direction in most cases. Therefore a compromise is needed here: China needs more moms capable of producing kids of Bill Gates-style while the west now needs more moms to prepare their kids with solid skills and disciplinary attitude in order to compete in a globalized market. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004846 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004846
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 11:42:29 GMT
Yiqun Ma wrote "Bill Gates was only born in the United States. But when he wanted to materialize ..." End http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004796 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004796
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 10:30:50 GMT
A Patel wrote "End" I would have turned out to be a burned out, bitter South Asian myself, but at the last minute, I saw light at the end of the tunnel and managed to salvage what was left of my identity just in time for me to see the forest for its trees. Growing up, I had a childhood that, in comparison, would make that of Ms. Chua’s daughters feel like a Cakewalk. To give you an idea of what I mean, let me narrate to you a brief incident:
As a child, I sucked at Math. Not because I didn’t understand it (I am oddly quite good at it now) but because, my teacher was wildly ineffective. Ironically enough, when a student got a problem wrong, instead of correcting the mistake and showing the student the correct way to go about doing it, my math teacher would throw the copy on the floor, call me a “dog” and cane me repeatedly. You wouldn’t believe this, but where I went to school, the teachers had the right to use a thorn filled cane to physically beat and abuse a child in front of the whole class, for doing something as trivial as drinking water from a water bottle without asking for the teacher’s permission (I learned this the hard way). These inhumane liberties were so prevalent, that they also pervaded my household. When my mother saw that hiring a tutor only improved me grades from near failing to a measly 83%, she got extremely angry. One day, when I came home from my final examination in math in 6th grade, my mother rushed out to greet me. Rather than offering me a glass of water, or giving me food to eat after the long, hot day, the first thing she asked me to do was to handover the question paper for the final. (They allowed us to take home the question paper with us afterwards). Thereafter, she sat me down with my tutor (who was there, waiting for me) and asked me to solve the entire exam right then, exactly as I had done at school, from memory. I shivered at the thought, because I knew that if I got even one question wrong, I was going to be in for a horrible surprise. But I agreed anyway, perhaps because at the time, I thought that I had well for once on a math exam. Boy was I off the mark- when I finished the exam and handed over the paper to my tutor, he instantly snatched it from my hand, looked over it with a devilish grin (I’ll never forget the look on his face) and triumphantly announced to my mother: “HE GOT A 75%!” My mother took one look at me, and rushed out of the room. Knowing that something was up, my tutor bid me goodbye right then and left. I sat there, waiting for my punishment, perhaps another round of scolding and slapping. But I was in for a huge surprise- my mother showed up with a leather belt, a shoehorn and a red face with bloodshot eyes. I almost peed my pants out of fear. What followed was a good hour of screaming, followed by me being pummeled into the ground by a combination of kicking and being hit with the shoehorn. At this point, I was crying so much I could hardly breathe or see clearly. But my mother didn’t stop there. When I got up in an effort to run, she ripped off my clothing until nothing but my underpants remained. She proceeded to whip me with the leather belt (I’ll never forget the welts that caused, nor will I forget the brand name of that dreaded belt- Calvin Klein- still hate it with a passion) in an effort to drive me out of the house.
Once I was out of the house, she threw me into the street and screamed all kinds of things about how I was an incompetent, good for nothing idiot. Needless to say, I was essentially being paraded to complete strangers (hundreds) on the open street with welt marks and bruises on my body while my mother continued her tirade from inside the gates of the house. This continued until one of my mothers friends calmed her down hours later.
That incident made me fearful of math until I graduated from high school. Only in college did I finally get over the stigma. But I still have nightmares about the abusive actions my mother perpetrated when I was a child. I don’t know if I will ever be able to forgive her for such things. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004795 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004795
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 10:30:35 GMT
A Patel wrote "I would have turned out to be a burned out, bitter South Asian ..." For a "Chinese mother", who is so facile with this "East/West" dichotomy, she sure has some pretty unconventional and atypical proclivities as a "Chinese" person. She equates the "Piano" and the "Violin" as the only "worthwhile" extra-curricular activities for her children. There are plenty of other musical instruments from China. I believe the piano and the violin are typical instruments while playing Beethoven or a Schubert composition. I don't think either men studied under Confuscius or Mao. This Amy Chua is so full of herself and so full of uninformed stereotypes camouflaged as motherly wisdom. I come from a big peasant family of Toishan chinese. I have not known any of my aunts to be like her. She resembles to me more like a Maggie Whitman or a Carlie Fiorina, or a Maggie Thatcher. "Dragon" ladies. So ambitious. So full of themselves. Test scores. Numbers ladies. Just by the numbers. "Leave no child behind". This is a "paint-by-numbers" theory of the world. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004791 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004791
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 10:20:19 GMT
htun lin wrote "For a "Chinese mother", who is so facile with this "East/West" dichotomy, ..." Well, I'm not sure what kind of a teacher you are, but if you think that the way Ms. Chua raises her kids, just to teach them not to give up, then you need to see a doctor. My wife is Chinese (and not raised in America). She thinks that they Ms. Chua should be locked up in jail for abuse. My wife and I don't teach our child to give up, and we don't beat it into them. Also, if you can't take the heat? GET OUT, don't teach, I would never have my child taught by you. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004788 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004788
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 10:16:16 GMT
David Ronningen wrote "Well, I'm not sure what kind of a teacher you are, but if you think that the way ..." This was very enlightening article, I totally disagree with this style of parenting. I am married to a Chinese, who is very strict with my child when it comes to education, but not to that extreme. Because as a child, you not only need to learn to study hard for good grades, but you must also learn passion, imagination, and most of all the love of education. Without the first two points, you don't have a compassionate human being, you might end up raising a dictator who is so smart that he or she (to be fair) wants to rule the world. My wife started out as strong as this "LIBERAL PROFESSOR", and my child wasn't doing too good, lots of crying, screeming and spankings, but it was going no where, test day came, not so good. I had two days with my child, and I sat and worked, played, and studied. No screaming, no spankings, and no crying. Test day came, guess what? A 100% on the test. So who is the better parent????? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004777 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004777
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 10:06:46 GMT
David Ronningen wrote "This was very enlightening article, I totally disagree with this style of parenting. I am ..." Madam Chu could have just asked us to spend more money on opium. Relax. I don't hate Chinese. I just don't like seeing someone become wealthy over insulting people. Well, except Rush and Glen and Sarah. I love the way they reek from money. It's in their blood u know. Not like Glen is somewhat smug about his antisemitism. It's just that accusing others of being yourself is quite trite and inappropriate. He should really have his knees checked out. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004774 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004774
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 09:58:35 GMT
Roxie Kushnick wrote "Madam Chu could have just asked us to spend more money on ..." For a "Chinese mother", who is so facile with this "East/West" dichotomy, she sure has some pretty unconventional and atypical proclivities as a "Chinese" person. She equates the "Piano" and the "Violin" as the only "worthwhile" extra-curricular activities for her children. There are plenty of other musical instruments from China. I believe the piano and the violin are typical instruments while playing Beethoven or a Schubert composition. I don't think either men studied under Confuscius or Mao. This Amy Chua is so full of herself and so full of uninformed stereotypes camouflaged as motherly wisdom. I come from a big peasant family of Toishan chinese. I have not known any of my aunts to be like her. She resembles to me more like a Maggie Whitman or a Carlie Fiorina, or a Maggie Thatcher. "Dragon" ladies. Full of ambition and full of themselves. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004771 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004771
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 09:56:56 GMT
htun lin wrote "For a "Chinese mother", who is so facile with this "East/West" dichotomy, ..." Thank you for bringing this topic to the forefront== parenting today. Often children and parents are in reverse roles and the outcomes are devastating all around. Can't wait for your next post! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004768 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004768
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 09:50:13 GMT
Elle Mar wrote "Thank you for bringing this topic to the forefront== parenting today. Often children and parents are in ..." Proud to be an Asian. Thank you, professor Chua. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004767 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004767
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 09:47:48 GMT
Kyaw Min wrote "Proud to be an Asian. Thank you, professor Chua." I am particulary concerned about parents who will use this book as an "excuse to abuse" their own children and take the abuse even farther. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004766 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004766
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 09:47:32 GMT
Heidi Hanson wrote "I am particulary concerned about parents who will use this book as an "..." Typical Yale professor!!! You should be ashamed of yourself for drilling your child's hands for not playing the piano correctly! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004734 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004734
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 08:25:49 GMT
Scott W wrote "Typical Yale professor!!! You should be ashamed of yourself for drilling your child's ..." Hey James, have you tried Dragon Wonton and Husband and wife's Lungslice in Chengdu? hahaha... I still miss those delicious small dishes.
I also came back from a business trip to China last month. Saw a lot of things which made me think. There are still a lot of problems over there but I saw quite some refreshing spirit I haven't seen for long time back at home.
You mentioned ...they each greeted you with a smile a look in the eyes and a kind word...very same feeling I got. The whole group of ours agreed that many of their services is just superb including those foot massage. :))
Another impression I got is that they move so fast. Everyone seemed so busy. This is something I am not used to yet. Compared to Chinese people, we seem to be living a slow and much relaxing life...we are blessed. :)
. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004726 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004726
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 08:01:30 GMT
John Mackay wrote "Hey James, have you tried Dragon Wonton and Husband and wife's Lungslice in ..." Thank you Amy for your provocative piece!
for making us think about our child rearing style across the board irrespective of nationality or race;
for allowing yourself to be a target; I think the prize is in the pudding and looking at your two girls you have not done badly at all;
for bring attention to a topic that we all care about but usually do not have much resources except rely on the way we were brought up;
for bring out the spectrum of differing styles and yet uniting us all as parents.
Well done! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004722 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004722
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 07:48:12 GMT
William Tan wrote "Thank you Amy for your provocative piece!for making us think about ..." By focusing on the behavior of mothers and children, this highly noted article and the numerous comments it triggers miss the point of the maternal attachments which are at play here. To go deeper, see: "French and Americans - The Other Shore" (Les Frenchies, Inc., Berkeley, 2005 - free download on www.pbaudry.com). http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004702 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004702
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 07:19:09 GMT
Pascal Baudry wrote "By focusing on the behavior of mothers and children, this highly noted article and the numerous comments it triggers ..." About five years ago I moved to China to pursue work and quality-of-life. On balance, I'd say things are better for me here. As I don't want to wish hardship or disaster on anyone, in general, if the trends continue, China will have an infrastructure and society relatively on par with most of the best-places in the world. In some circumstances, for example where I live, we're already there. So Rick, what was your point? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004701 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004701
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 07:18:23 GMT
Robert Dunn wrote "About five years ago I moved to China to pursue work and quality-of-..." The other day I was "rearranging" some coasters on the table....I then realized my dad used to always do that...... http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004699 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004699
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 07:11:51 GMT
Robert Dunn wrote "The other day I was "rearranging" some coasters on the table....I then realized ..." United States of Israel. Do you really want to go there? That's another topic though. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004698 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004698
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 07:10:52 GMT
Peter Wong wrote "United States of Israel. Do you really want to go there? That's another topic ..." I personally thought that Mr. Cheng tried to strike a balance between nature and nurture. As Warren Buffet has said, "He was lucky enough to be born in a country that rewarded how his brain was wired."
James' attack on one's grammar is pretty weak, that's why editors exist in the world. (and this is a...blog) It's also a pretty thinly-veiled holier-than-thou western/U.S. centric view and a very insecure attitude.
I do agree with him, however, that WSJ took a pretty tabloid-like approach to introducing Ms. Chau's memoir. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004696 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004696
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 07:09:35 GMT
Robert Dunn wrote "I personally thought that Mr. Cheng tried to strike a balance between nature and ..." Paul, what you said is very true. Not every kid in an adverse environment is lucky to have the same kind of parents Grace has, and not everyone can be outperforming in such an environment. Poverty is an social issue we have to face. That is another big topic though... http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004693 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004693
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 07:06:14 GMT
John Mackay wrote "Paul, what you said is very true. Not every kid in an adverse environment is ..." Very well said, Ron. That's exactly what I wanted to say and you put it into words precisely!
American is strong because we assimilate various good stuff from all different peoples and eventually make them into our blood and enrich our value/culture. That is our strength. We should keep our open-mindedness whenever possible.
Amy Chua is just a cue that introduced this fierce debate. The true meaningful thing behind is what we should do to better our current education and child rearing mindset in order to prepare them for a better future. I have to admit I attained so much from reading all the comments here. For this I thank Amy Chua and WSJ. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004673 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004673
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 06:55:07 GMT
John Mackay wrote "Very well said, Ron. That's exactly what I wanted to say and you ..." REGULAR JOE - I really appreciate Alan's viewpoint on this. He expands the dialogue on the realities of how people and generations join, adjust and grow in an open society like the U.S.
In terms of people's abilities and aspirations, he's not advocating aiming for the low, but keeps things in perspective, aim high, but be as he said in an earlier comment, "Most of people are just regular ones trying to find a matching job, contribute to the society with what they can do and enjoy the life." http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004672 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004672
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 06:54:51 GMT
Robert Dunn wrote "REGULAR JOE - I really appreciate Alan's viewpoint on this. He expands the dialogue on the ..." Alan, you are a "Wonderful dad!" http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004668 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004668
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 06:49:47 GMT
Robert Dunn wrote "Alan, you are a "Wonderful dad!"" What Amy Chua wrote was half true. Parents can bring out the best in their children by becoming strict and dedicated to what field they want their children into. But let us remember that we must give our children freedom at a certain extent. Parent's wants the best for their children, but in wanting to bring out that best in them, we must not sacrifice their right to enjoy their once in a lifetime opportunity to become a child-to enjoy a carefree and normal life.
At the same time, we must teach them that freedom has its boundaries. We must teach them what is right and prohibit what is wrong. By doing so, we are furnishing their character so that they will become good individuals when they became adults.
Looking at Amy's article, we must see it in a constructive way not as a comparison to harm the image of Western mothers. Because when we look at the condition of the western world today, we can say that kids are going the wrong way. Just to mention a few, we can look the great number of number of young people who are engage in premarital sex, violence and all sorts of vices unimaginable before. Now, we will look at ourselves as parents and concerned children on how we can change the trend we see nowadays in our society. The answer is good upbringing, it has been proven many times that healthy families reflect into a healthy society. I think, we can do it if we start to implement the balance between the Chinese and Western ways of upbringing. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004595 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004595
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 06:05:12 GMT
Ron Jay Ponce de Leon Dangcalan wrote "What Amy Chua wrote was half true. Parents can bring out the ..." Grace - I take your comments on board and congratulate your parents for doing such a great job. I have lived in Beijing now for a number of years and I have seen first hand the sacrifices some parents here will make for their kids. I also know plenty of Chinese parents who have a fatalistic attitude about their lives and prospects for wealth. Your parents by the fact of their immigration were go-getters. Not all parents are - and the fact remains that there is a direct correlation between levels of poverty in a community and test scores. Kids can get the best upbringing a parent can offer but they don't grow up in a bubble. If they are at a local school with poor quality teaching, few resources and an unsafe learning environment, their chances of being lifted out of that community are slim - not impossible, but slim. This issue is not solved by pointing to a handful of success stories and implying others need to lift their standards and just follow their lead. Not everyone had your inspiring parents for role models. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004566 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004566
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 05:50:51 GMT
Paul Flynn wrote "Grace - I take your comments on board and congratulate your parents for doing such a ..." Finally!
Someone spoke out the true feeling depply hidden in his heart. I bet that's the real sentiment many commentors share here when they saw the title of the article and when they were 'discussing' the so called parenting.
Let's get it straight! No more political correctness! No more pretending! Let's pull off the masquerade and confess: we are racist! so what?
BTW Leo, are you a Mexican American?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004523 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004523
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 05:29:52 GMT
John Mackay wrote "Finally! Someone spoke out the true feeling depply hidden in his heart. ..." Very interesting and well written story. This comes at a coincidental time for me, having just returned from a 10 day University trip on which we experienced Beijing and Hong Kong, I know only a small fraction of China, but not the point. Without regard for what we were studying on the trip the amazing amount of contrast between American and Chinese culture was clear. With us on our nearly full return flight from Beijing to LA there was a group of at least 75 Chinese students no older than say 8 most likely, with them about 6 chaperone's. We all know what airports can be like, that being said I have never seen anything like it in my life. Just watching how well they listened and handled security and customs with little play by play from an adult to get them through all the hassles. Never screwing off always attentive to the others and mindful of the surroundings they honestly traveled better than many adults I have seen, especially on a 12 hour flight shoulder to shoulder with a stranger. Being a less than perfect child myself and growing up to change my ways and observe those now younger than me I find it hard to see even a much smaller group of western students behave this well, especially on an international flight. Now a few other thoughts to add to the article. In reference to the paragraph about Chinese parents believing their children owing them everything, along with what was mentioned I think there is a strong connection between this believing and the one child policy. From an economics viewpoint by each family having only one child this creates a kind of scarcity that drives the value of a child sky high. With the desire to make things better for their child/sometimes children in a country with a rapidly expanding middle class the value of bringing up well educated, hard working kids with tough minds from the never fail mentality is a clear goal to achieve through whatever means necessary. The rules of competition fit here too, in a country with so many people competition is tough for even the most simple work i.e. wait staff or cleaners, and I have another example from my recent trip. At the Starbucks or fast food store, to the bathroom attendant, and the litter sweeper in the subway, to hotel staff, and stores and restaurants...they each greeted you with a smile a look in the eyes and a kind word, and would do anything to be of service. The folks doing the most mundane work all look overjoyed to be employed and their work shows it too, and this is apparent between natives not just as a tourist. Upon return to LA when I got a coffee at the terminal Starbucks, the girl from whom I ordered asked what do want, and then 4.40, and that was it all while looking down never establishing eye contact! It hit hard right then what will decay America. Along with culture differences China is a classic manifestation common in countries experiencing growth especially from large scale relative poverty to a vibrant middle class, you can see similar trends in the various generations of immigrates in America. Look closely and you will be able to see that they place a much higher value on just about everything, because compared to what many of them came from America is truly the land of opportunity and success, but they know that it takes hard work and devotion driven from what they might have came from. This very attitude is what made America great for centuries among all groups, but the later generations of American born seem to be losing this sense. The more and more prominent American attitudes of entitlement not of the government type exactly, and selfishness are going to bring this country into the next low. No longer can I find much that truly binds Americans together where it matters, almost everything is so polarized politically anymore that true American progress for Americans is very hard to achieve. I have hope no less, but coincidently I think as China certainly passes the US economy in size in the not to distant future, and continues to steam toward a competing world power that Americans will have a chance to rethink the future all we need is a little threat. Not to quote the news, but I see China as our savior, and not to put China on a high throne, because China needs us just as much as we need them leaving no room for large mistakes on either side. I hope our politicians see that we have a lot to learn between the countries, and don't damage this fragile relationship in a way that could destroy either county or both together. Embrace and nourish China as if it was the US's only child to carry on the legacy of America. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004522 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004522
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 05:29:09 GMT
James Kendell wrote "Very interesting and well written story. This comes at a coincidental time for me, having ..." Bring back the Chinese Exclusion Act. The men who passed that law knew how to protect us. I live in an area that has literally been invaded by Chinese, and where I once used to love it here, I now hate it. An acquaintance, who lived in an exclusive gated community here, recently moved to an expensive high-rise in the city to get away. "I couldn't stand it anymore," he said to my sister, who manages the high-rise, "and if you haven't experienced it, you won't understand it. You have to experience it." The fact is that Chinese really do think they are superior to everyone else in the world, mostly because they have a 5000-year history. I am not living in America anymore. Now I am called a "foreign devil" in my own country by an alien people that live to acquire German cars and American houses. They have no fealty to the country of my forefathers. They did not help build it but enjoy the fruits thereof. They do not serve in the military. They do not serve others. Period. They establish their own schools and civic clubs and look down on anyone not of their tribe. They huddle together en masse and refuse to mix with the general population. They lack any common courtesy, particularly while driving their BMWs or Mecedes-Benzes on the roadways. They are tribalistic, exclusionary, and racist. More and more I find myself remembering the loveliest things about my childhood: my country, my community, my school, the holiday celebrations, the traditions, the things that make a culture. And as I remember them, I see that they are gone and that my children don’t have them. The immigration policy of this country is self-destructive and alienating to native Americans. Call me racist. Call me intolerant. Call me a bigot. I'm probably all of those things and many more. One thing I know, however, is that importing millions of Chinese to this country is helping to fray our national fabric, and it is too late to turn back now. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004432 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004432
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 04:53:11 GMT
Leonard Martinez wrote "Bring back the Chinese Exclusion Act. The men who passed that law knew ..." My views on this thought provoking article. Who am I to criticize any parent? Amy Chua made a choice how to teach and raise her daughters. Parents are teachers too. Teachers all have different styles to get through to their students. I believe there isn`t any one style that a parent has to use to be successful. Some are by trial and error experiments. If one approach is not working, admit failure and try another approach. While I haven’t tried Amy Chua’s approach, it only because of my personality and not her methods. If it works, use it until it doesn’t.
Having taught for 5 years in China in kindergarten, high school, university and business people, there isn’t one style I use all the time. I have met and spoken with many Chinese parents and Amy’s style is not the norm. As I look back on what has worked for me, I find that I my approach is more encouraging along with being demanding for excellence. Praise with constructive criticism, to borrow a business term, helps to guide the student along. There are times when I think I am not doing a good job and then I get a phone call from the school administration saying the Chinese Model United Nation class really enjoys me teaching them. I ask why? The response is my classes are different from their Chinese classes in that I talk with them and not at them. They like my sense of humor used in teaching, which is seldom seen in their regular Chinese studies. My end goal is for them to desire to learn willingly and not because I am forcing them or using threats of punishment.
At my high school in Chengdu, China, most of my students will be attending universities in the USA. Having worked for several Fortune 500 companies, I teach more from experience more than from the class book, which I regard as a one teaching tool.
So, to me it seems Amy Chua has been successful raising and teaching her daughters with her own approach. Good for her. Any parent that uses any style to teach their children shows they care!
The children or students can tell if you really care about them.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004425 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004425
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 04:52:02 GMT
JOHN GARRISON wrote "My views on this thought provoking article. Who am I to criticize any ..." "Achievement runs in this families blood. Read her bio. If she knows that then she knows that her kids can do the same. The rest of us have to figure out what our kids can do and how to get the best out of them. "
Right on! kids are different, success is not something everybody can easily copy from others. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004381 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004381
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 04:39:01 GMT
John Mackay wrote ""Achievement runs in this families blood. Read her bio. If she knows that then ..." United States of Israel?
hey, that's too straightforward, ok? Sometimes truth hurts. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004366 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004366
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 04:35:36 GMT
John Mackay wrote "United States of Israel? hey, that's too straightforward, ok? Sometimes truth hurts...." maybe Allah. who knows? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004359 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004359
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 04:33:08 GMT
John Mackay wrote "maybe Allah. who knows?" Way to go Jeff. Medically proved, sometimes fantasy can do good to the mental health. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004353 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004353
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 04:31:26 GMT
John Mackay wrote "Way to go Jeff. Medically proved, sometimes fantasy can do good to the ..." Well said Grace. many great & successful people were growing out of poverty and lived their life to the full. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004338 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004338
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 04:26:18 GMT
John Mackay wrote "Well said Grace. many great & successful people were growing ..." Obviously you are different from Amy Chua's kids. You are kind of kid that shouldn't be pushed hard because you are not strong enough to take it. Also you should never join the Army.
I'm sure if your father parent you more like your mother, the result would turn out better. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004326 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004326
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 04:21:34 GMT
John Mackay wrote "Obviously you are different from Amy Chua's kids. You are kind of kid that ..." Grace is right. We have to look at the capacity of the students. Poverty and wealth are oftentimes not causes but effects or symptoms of an inability to perform up to standards. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004306 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004306
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 04:12:46 GMT
tom merle wrote "Grace is right. We have to look at the capacity of the students. Poverty and wealth are oftentimes not ..." Jeez, your writing really didn't try to hide the fact that you're a person with unquestionable humor, nor does it hide the fact that you enjoy a bit of unorthodox fun. I'm sure your life stories can also become best sellers in certain circles. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004268 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004268
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 03:52:24 GMT
Chris Doe wrote "Jeez, your writing really didn't try to hide the fact that you're a person with ..." I agree with Ms. Chua 100% that the strict Chinese upbringing pushes children to their fullest potential. I know this because I'm a 17-year-old purebred Chinese daughter. While my mother was a bit more liberal in her parenting methods, my father adhered to the same strict upbringing that Chua speaks of. He even thought that my mother was too soft with me and that she never disciplined me enough; so, he was forced to be the bad guy. Sure, my father constantly called me fat, lazy, and stupid, but all the criticism pushed me to where I am now:
-a straight A student (ok fine, I get the occasional B that my parents wig out at)
-a member of multiple honor societies with officer positions in two of the societies
-a winner of many academic and community service awards
-a dedicated dancer and volunteer
-a woman who knows her domestic skills thoroughly and has no distracting boyfriend whatsoever
Oh yes, the Chinese upbringing has pushed me beyond what I imagined to be impossible. But, to top off all these achievements (yes, there's more!), I've been recovering from anorexia for the past six months (since I left the hospital in July) and battling a cutting problem for the past four months. That doesn't matter, though, because my parents "prepared me for the future, let me see what I'm capable of, and armed me with skills and work habits nobody can ever take away." It's not like kids have a breaking point or anything. So, thank you, mom and dad. The bubbling anxiety around food and the 100+ scars covering my arms and stomach are SO worth that A+.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004229 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004229
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 03:39:57 GMT
Alyssa L wrote "I agree with Ms. Chua 100% that the strict Chinese upbringing pushes children to their ..." Paul, the real problem is not poverty. My parents came to this country with nothing. They made around $30k annually, all together, while I was growing up. But they were practical. They saved. They didn't spend money on entertainment, on vacations, on new clothes, on electronics gadgets or any of those things that us Americans take for granted. But whatever they had they gave to my two sisters and me.
You're right. The school system and parenting are not the problems. But neither is poverty. What matters most is what kind of people your parents are and what kind of values they teach you--not what they make you do or what kind of school they put you in. My parents are responsible, independent, self-sufficient, selfless and hard working. I'm glad I inherited those traits! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004227 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004227
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 03:38:15 GMT
Grace Cheung wrote "Paul, the real problem is not poverty. My parents came to this country with nothing. They made ..." Strict parenting/disciplining aside, I'm curious to find out what teachers of America today think of Amy Chua's methods up to the point where her younger daughter started to rebel. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004215 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004215
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 03:33:19 GMT
Chris Doe wrote "Strict parenting/disciplining aside, I'm curious to find out what teachers of ..." Buddha nods to your choice and wishes you peace. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004161 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004161
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 03:13:37 GMT
Robert Dunn wrote "Buddha nods to your choice and wishes you peace." They'll be among a group of mostly non-asian entertainers. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004158 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004158
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 03:11:53 GMT
Robert Dunn wrote "They'll be among a group of mostly non-asian entertainers." APPLES & STARFRUIT - I think you raise a very important point, are we comparing averages or relatively-equivalent environments? I think it is more informative to compare, as you say - wealthy U.S. school districts with the school districts and wealthy households in Shanghai. It would also then be interesting to compare a low-income area in Louisiana to a rural school in Xinjiang China. The national-level macro comparisons are only valid to a point, and hardly value-add in informing us at the actual teaching/parenting/kid learning level. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004151 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004151
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 03:09:54 GMT
Robert Dunn wrote "APPLES & STARFRUIT - I think you raise a very important point, are ..."
"Nothing is easy if you want to do it well, so we told them never be afraid of the failure. One time I asked him, do you feel pressure trying to be the best in the grade while you need to spend so much time in the school Jazz Ensemble and band and also be in a baseball player in local league?"
Alan, it seems as if you and your wife are blending methods of pushing your children to do their best and, at the same time, monitoring them for feedback to see how they feel about things and how the methods are working. Your children are lucky to have parents that believe in balance.
"I am not saying kids don't need self-esteem but sometimes for most of kids, they also need discipline, pressure and the taste of failure, which can actually inspire their courage to overcome the hardship in life and advance themselves with high self-esteem."
I agree with this so whole-heartedly. There is nothing for children like seeing themselves overcome obstacles to get natural, real, and lasting boosts in self-esteem. I don't know why people are so convinced that simply telling children how great they are all the time will give them true self esteem. Self esteem has to come from within. As parents, we can help to foster our childrens' self esteem but we can't sprinkle it on them like fairy dust. I think we do children a disservice by not teaching them how to generate their own self esteem. It's like the old adage that "If you give a man a fish you feed him for a day; if you teach him how to fish you feed him for a lifetime." Same thing with self-esteem. Flowery words have their place but they don't give a child a lasting sense of worth. Teaching a child to take a healthy pride and confidence in his own capability and potential, however, means a child learns to feel good about himself even when his parents aren't around to puff him up. I believe that self esteem- and happiness- are skills to be learned not gifts to be bestowed. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004101 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004101
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 02:58:40 GMT
Amy Raab wrote ""Nothing is easy if you want to do it well, so we told ..." Let's in inject some facts into this debate: in areas of the US where poverty rates are less than 10 percent, the average test scores of American students put them first in reading, first in science, and third in math on a global scale. This data is from the most recent International Reading Literacy Study and the Trends in International Math and Science Study. Factor in poorer areas in the US and the results bottom out.
The real problems in the US are not the school system or parenting, they are poverty and the yawning wealth gap ... and shallow headline-grabbing analyses like this article that contribute nothing to addressing the greater issues. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004007 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2004007
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 02:29:49 GMT
Paul Flynn wrote "Let's in inject some facts into this debate: in areas of the US where poverty rates are ..." I posted this in Ayelet Waldman's article also:
I think after reading the original article and all the responses, we can agree that there's no "right" or "superior" way to raise children. The end goal is to raise happy and healthy children. Ones that grow up to be responsible and self sufficient, independent thinkers, and ones that understand the value of hard work. Obviously, every parent is different and every child is different and parents will raise their children the best way they know. There is no formula. Rather, it's more like a custom solution.
Not every child will have the potential to be "innovative" or "creative." Or have the potential to play at Carnegie Hall or become the next Steve Jobs. But every child can learn good values, to work hard, to think for themselves and to be responsible.
Growing up, my parents had very high expectations for me. [Note: They are not highly educated nor wealthy. In fact they come from very humble beginnings: read here - http://gracecheung.wordpress.com/2010/10/21/blessings/) Of course, they didn't expect me to earn less than perfect grades, because they knew I was capable of it. BUT as long as they knew I put in my 100%, they were fine. And as long as I continued to do well in school, I had all the freedom in the world to do whatever I wanted. That was how I earned my independence. It was in that free time that I socialized with my friends, experimented with new activities or hobbies and learned to solve problems. And yes, they have that very narrow view of success like many Chinese parents do, but those are the values in the Chinese culture. It wasn't always easy, as a first generation American, to reconcile the two very different cultures. But I'm happy with the outcome.
I went to high school with people whose parents coddled them, and I feel bad for them because now they don't know how to do anything for themselves. They're stuck working at jobs they hate because they didn't make the sacrifices or put in the hard work back then. You think it was easy for my parents to see 16-year-old me up studying until 3AM in the morning when I had volleyball practice 3 hours later? I stayed up even when my mom yelled at me to go to sleep.
But quite honestly, I think some parents take way too much credit for their children's successes. You forget that it's ultimately up to each individual to work hard and to push themselves. My older sister graduated valedictorian of her high school class and my younger sister barely graduated from high school. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003911 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003911
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 01:50:04 GMT
Grace Cheung wrote "I posted this in Ayelet Waldman's article also:I think after reading the ..." The only problem with this parenting method is that even if you drill a child continuously, without a break, not only will the child "burn out", but that child still may not make it at whatever they are doing. As a result that will just initiate that "little voice" in the back of their head that says "apparently no matter how hard I try I am just not good enough. I am so stupid that even my mother is insulting me. I know she just wants the best for me, but that best isn't mine". Not only will this foster a hatred of the parent who just wanted to help (even if it was in the wrong way), but it will also cause a "death" of the self esteem, as if it were an organ or a person. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003888 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003888
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 01:41:02 GMT
Joshua Wallin wrote "The only problem with this parenting method is that even if you drill a child continuously, without a ..." There is quite a bit of truth in Ms. Chua's article. As a teacher, I have so many students who show up who have been allowed to quit when things get too hard. All their lives they have been allowed to give up. And yet, when a teacher with back bone forces an issue, makes a child keep at a task until they get it, the students are SO proud of their accomplishment.
I cannot tell you how many times, however, I've had a parent get in my face to tell me why it's not possible for their child to do whatever task it is I have assigned. Yell at me. Call me all sorts of things. And yet, they never come back and apologize when the child finally overcomes the roadblock and does what I've asked.
We are raising/have raised children who believe that it's OK to: a)not be good at math, b)hate to read, c)compose a paragraph as if they were texting a friend and d) believe that school should be about fun and entertainment. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003852 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003852
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 01:25:45 GMT
Rob Miles wrote "There is quite a bit of truth in Ms. Chua's article. As a teacher, I have so ..." Chinese seem to judge a person's success only by how far up the elite ladder their kids have reached.
They have it correct, in this world it is all about being elite.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003830 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003830
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 01:13:36 GMT
Onan Delorbe wrote "Chinese seem to judge a person's success only by how far up the elite ..." What about the Jewish Mother? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003789 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003789
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 00:56:42 GMT
Aviv Harel wrote "What about the Jewish Mother?" Wow, look at the response count on this article. 7000+ !! Chalk one up for Ms. Chua. Probably won't hurt book sales.
Ignore the title, it's an eye grabbing use of a superlative. Achievement runs in this families blood. Read her bio. If she knows that then she knows that her kids can do the same. The rest of us have to figure out what our kids can do and how to get the best out of them. When you interact with your kids are most actions calculated and meant to build them into better adults? It's that simple but a ton of sweat and tears. Let's get crackin' http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003787 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003787
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 00:55:52 GMT
Matthew Roha wrote "Wow, look at the response count on this article. 7000+ !! Chalk one up for Ms. ..." So, chinese mothers are superior? And that "by contrast, Western parents have to tiptoe around the issue, talking in terms of "health" and never ever mentioning the f-word, and their kids still end up in therapy for eating disorders and negative self-image" ? Well how about this: I had work along with a chinese guy, he was around 20 y.o. He was always lying, he said, he has girlfiend when he has no one, he said he has cell phone, when he don't have one, etc. One day we confront him, he reluctantly admitted and almost broke tears when he said he had done all that because he want to look cool just like the other guys. He has a LOWWWWW and negative self image.
Now, of course, you may say that not every chinese kids has a negative self esteem like this guys, but, it is the same with the following statement that: not every western kids end up in therapy for eating disorders and negative self-image, right???????????? Could someone here correct me if I'm wrong. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003745 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003745
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 00:36:33 GMT
Nick Felix wrote "So, chinese mothers are superior? And that "by contrast, Western parents have to tiptoe ..." Many arguments here say Asian people are "no personality, no interpersonal skills, and little creativity" people. To cetain extend I agree. But hey, it's way better than no job. One thing need to be mentioned, many Asians here are still first generation immigrants. The main task for first generation is to adapt and survive. It's hard for them to become leaders in a white culture dominated society because they come from different countries and cultures. Language itself is already a big barrier. If you put an French in China or Japan, same thing would happen. It'd be very hard for a French guy to become a CEO in a Chinese company. It should be a naturally understandable thing.
We should focus more on the 2nd generation and beyond. How many of 2nd generation Chinese/Asian Americans are still "no personality, no interpersonal skills"? I see big difference compared to the first generation. Most of them are pursuing the majors they prefer just like any other Americans, and their interpersonal skills are much better compared to first generation. The fact is Asian Americans overall has the lowest unemployment rate and highest average income as a racial group, although it's considered the newest arrival racial group because most of Asians came to America in recent 10-20 years. How can you justify these "no personality, no interpersonal skills, and little creativity" people doing so well in this society? Not intended to say Asians are superior or something racial like that, but to point out a fact that as regular persons who have small possibility to become inventors or leaders, being disciplined, hard-working and highly trained skillful are much better than being slacking and self indulging as long as it's not over the limit like Amy Chua.
Facts are facts, it speaks louder than any arguments. Something need to be improved in our education and parenting. Now we are too western libral but I prefer the middle way. That's it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States#Race
http://www.bls.gov/cps/race_ethnicity_2008_10.htm
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003719 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003719
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 00:22:54 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Many arguments here say Asian people are "no personality, no interpersonal skills, and ..." Ms. Raab, good point and good questions. I can't speak for others. I just want to share with you my experience as an Asian American parent.
First off, I believe that individul kids are different. There actually is not a universal parenting way for everybody. Western or Easern or mix, as long as it fits the kid, it's a good parenting way. That being said, we do have some common grounds for any education method. Those common things should include teaching kids to be nice and caring, positive, confident, respectful, perseverant, disciplined, hard-working, cooperative, and creative. These are all important and wonderful traits of human beings. I put creativeness last because I think not everyone can be creative, it's more of a born gift. but we all need the first few characters to thrive and live our life to the full. Those are also important characters for a leader.
My son is a 7th grader and my daughter is onlt 2nd grader. My son has been the model students (said by teachers) in his primary school and now middle school. He was picked up for talent program since k-school. My wife and I are definitely not a control freak type like Amy Chua and actully we both think she went too far on that (we feel offended as well since she used Chinese Mother in such an irresponsible way). But besides everything else, we do teach our kids the importance of perseverance and hard work. I always told him, whatever you want to do with you life, try your best and do it well, because that's how our human society advances and why this great country can be the best. Nothing is easy if you want to do it well, so we told them never be afraid of the failure. One time I asked him, do you feel pressure trying to be the best in the grade while you need to spend so much time in the school Jazz Ensemble and band and also be in a baseball player in local league? He said no, I feel fun to do all these. I asked him, why everybody we met in your school, teachers, parents and classmates think you are smart? he said, no daddy, they are wrong. I'm not smarter. It's just other classmates do not try enough. They don't care about grades. It's just so easy to win the game.
That's why I do have the same feeling as yours that in today's America, kids are just too spoiled and psychologically weak with all this over-stressed self-esteem theory. I am not saying kids don't need self-esteem but sometimes for most of kids, they also need discipline, pressure and the taste of failure, which can actually inspire their courage to overcome the hardship in life and advance themselves with high self-esteem. This is nothing against creativity and leadership. Actually I think it helps kids to build up the confidence and strong characters.
We see all over this board many people talk about creativity and leadership as if hard-working and discipline are something mutual exclusive with them. That is totally misleading and untrue. My personal opinion is, creativity and leadership most of time come as a born gift. Not everyone can be inventor or leader no matter how freely you raised them and how much they try. Most of people are just regular ones trying to find a matching job, contribute to the society with what they can do and enjoy the life. So let's face it, if you want to find a job, you need to show your skills. Whitout hard working and learning, how can you learn skills? Especially in today's advanced society, good skills requires solid knowledge and sophisticated trainings. It's not easy to master these skills.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003710 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003710
Sat, 22 Jan 2011 00:18:28 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Ms. Raab, good point and good questions. I can't speak for others. ..." This is just a horrible article. I was bought up in an indian household although we werent abused for getting bad grades, we were looked down as useless and garbage. We were shown a lot of love and taken good care but that wasn't enough when I knew that they don't respect me as an individual and wanted me to live a life which was not what I wanted. I have seen friends whose parents were just like you, abusive and ambitious and that did not make them successful... it only made them lesser confident about themselves and had to find solace in friends. Just because you did not think it was wrong for your father to call you garbage doesn't mean it is OK to call your children garbage. What is success and ambition for a person if its not their own dream? You push and convert your children to become someone you want your child to become and they live the life you want them to live and you then expect them to be grateful to you for the rest of their lives? Do you call that fair? Parents should be encouraging, should be as honest as they can with their children and push them to success but what you are professing is Abuse! I pity your husband's weak character to just watch while you abuse your children. There is not a big difference between you and the parents who make their children celebrities for their own happiness. I feel really sorry for the children with parents like you. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003656 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003656
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 23:46:19 GMT
Sinduri Guntupalli wrote "This is just a horrible article. I was bought up in an indian household although we ..." Spot on Tim http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003643 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003643
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 23:42:09 GMT
Robert Cole wrote "Spot on Tim" Generally speaking what do you think about this author's perspective on parenting, are Chinese mothers superior to Western American mothers? I think the underlying comparison between the two is inappropriate!!! What do you think? You can voice your opinion here: http://survcast.com/Why-Chinese-Mothers-Are-Superior-WSJcom http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003637 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003637
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 23:40:42 GMT
Robert Cole wrote "Generally speaking what do you think about this author's perspective on parenting, are ..." I thank the God of Jacob that I wasn't raised by this lady or in China! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003627 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003627
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 23:35:43 GMT
keith atneosen wrote "I thank the God of Jacob that I wasn't raised by this lady or in China!" It's my pleasure! Thanks for your comment, Amy. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003610 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003610
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 23:28:19 GMT
Jin Kim wrote "It's my pleasure! Thanks for your comment, Amy." Soooo, let me get this straight - two Yale law professors raised two intelligent, well adjusted daughters who know how to play instruments and I'm supposed to be impressed? I'd like to see the "tiger mother" pull that off with two boys from the South Side of Chicago. Let's see her pull it off with her own kids if they had to go to public schools. And I wonder how many the 600 million Chinese living near the poverty level were raised by Chinese moms. Oh, wait...all of them. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003580 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003580
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 23:14:45 GMT
Tim McGowan wrote "Soooo, let me get this straight - two Yale law professors raised ..." One Harvard-educated mother = common Chinese mothers? No.
Two kids with parents who are Yale Law School professors = common Chinese or American kids? No.
Obsession with this article = a waste of time (that you can actually spend with your kids)? Yes. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003562 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003562
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 23:07:27 GMT
Eric Lu wrote "One Harvard-educated mother = common Chinese mothers? No.Two kids with parents ..." I was accused by my mother-in-law of being too strict on my daughter. She is now a Junior in college getting all A's. Her cousin of the same age on my husband's side never graduated high school and became an unwed mother at 18. I would never let my daughter sleep over at her cousin's house because of the lax rules there. Now all of a sudden my mother-in-law thinks I was right. Amazing what perspective will do to you. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003546 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003546
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 23:02:27 GMT
Donna Nuce wrote "I was accused by my mother-in-law of being too strict on my daughter. ..." That's true. My comment was simply to point out the dangers of bringing up an intellectual child yet stifling them socially. Having social etiquette and the ability to make connections is a vital part of any position, in addition to logic and creativity. Someone does not get to the top of a company without being "the total package."
As for what I do for a living - I'm just a student at University right now. I'm basing my assumptions off of my parents and their friends. My father is an engineer and my stepmother is an attorney, and they are both successful, and have many friends that also work hard and have fulfilling lives. None of them were raised in extreme environments like this. Certainly they were pushed to do well in school, as was I, but not at the expense of having friends, being involved in organizations, etc. There is something to be said for being well-rounded. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003543 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003543
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 22:59:47 GMT
Brianna Baily wrote "That's true. My comment was simply to point out the dangers of bringing up an intellectual ..." Thank you, Jana. There's another link in the blog you recommended that's also worth reading:
http://www.newsweek.com/2011/01/18/the-chinese-mom-backlash.html
For those who do not read Chinese or visit Chinese web sites regularly, you should know that Amy Chua's article on WSJ has also created quite a stir in the Chinese societies. Generally, the responses have been negative, including many from angry Chinese moms. Amy Chua's generalization of "Chinese" way of parenting, however loosely defined, has been largely unsupported in the East. It's a fact that Amy Chua still fails to acknowledge even now. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003524 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003524
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 22:52:31 GMT
Chris Doe wrote "Thank you, Jana. There's another link in the blog you recommended that's also worth ..." I hope my daughters turn out like this when they're 18. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003514 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003514
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 22:47:00 GMT
Amy Raab wrote "I hope my daughters turn out like this when they're 18...." That "the best days are behind us" is more fitting as a universal statement than one just for America. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003497 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003497
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 22:43:41 GMT
Jackie Stults wrote "That "the best days are behind us" is more fitting as a universal statement than ..." So you're saying that Chinese society is a result of good parenting methods? That's not saying much... http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003491 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003491
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 22:40:44 GMT
Jackie Stults wrote "So you're saying that Chinese society is a result of good parenting methods? That's not saying ..." I'd rather invest in relationships than excel academically. How many people look back on their life and wish they'd done better in school/had a more successful career?
"Western" parenting methods aren't perfect but neither is this method; it's all about balance! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003477 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003477
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 22:37:50 GMT
Jackie Stults wrote "I'd rather invest in relationships than excel academically. How many people ..." Please, this story is all about nothing. It has been here for weeks, let the Chinese mothers abuse their kids and, JSW move on. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003476 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003476
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 22:37:20 GMT
Juan-Antonio Garcia wrote "Please, this story is all about nothing. It has been here for weeks, let the ..." Jin Kim,
This is such a balanced and thoughtful response that I had to applaud you on it. It's a breath of fresh air. The majority do not view this subject- or any subject, honestly- so thoroughly, exploring many angles to increase their understanding. The majority would rather be "right" and feel they have it all figured out than actuallly try to understand and learn. Thank you for this insightful post. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003456 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003456
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 22:31:17 GMT
Amy Raab wrote "Jin Kim, This is such a balanced and thoughtful response that I had to applaud you on it. It's a breath of ..." There is a definite tendency, amongst those who have posted in support of the "western" model of parenting, to portray (or perhaps idealize) this model as being one that produces children who are creative free thinkers who will make great leaders; while the "chinese" model is portrayed (or perhaps villanized) as one that produces children who are robots that will not be incapable of having an independent thought. (I make no biases here. I'm fairly certain, human nature being as it is, that just as much idealizing and villanizing is being done on the other side.) My point is simply that these conceptions seem way too simple, black and white, and unrealistic.
I'm a "western" parent and, to be perfectly honest, I barely see a difference between an A or a B on my childrens' report cards. It's all good to me. But from what I have seen in my children's school, in homes where I work, on the news, in the neighborhood, etc, I do not believe we are effectively raising a signifcant quantity of loving individuals or great leaders. I think we have become too lax. There are waaay too many "western" kids out there who believe they need contribute no more to society or to their own family than to be their perfect selves. There is an attitude of entitlement, lack of inititative, and lack of respect.
I believe in the virtues of our "western" model of parenting that are discussed her- individualism, creative thought, flexibility, and expression. But I think there is a great need for self reflection here because we are losing a sense of balance without the more forgotten virtues of hard work, self reliance, and self control. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003421 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003421
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 22:21:58 GMT
Amy Raab wrote "There is a definite tendency, amongst those who have posted in support of the "western" ..." Many Asian students in Computer Science are first generation immigrants, becaue it's easier to land a job and survive in the new land. It's hard for them to become leaders in a white culture dominated society because they come from different countries and cultures. Language itself is already a big barrier. If you put an French in China or Japan, same thing would happen. It'd be very hard for a French guy to become a CEO in a Chinese company. It should be a naturally understandable thing.
We should focus more on the 2nd generation and beyond. How many of 2nd generation Chinese/Asian Americans are majoring in Computer Science? I see big decline compared to first generation. Most of them are pursuing the majors they prefer just like any other Americans, and their interpersonal skills are much better compared to first generation. The fact is Asian Americans has the lowest unemployment rate and highest average income as a racial group despite it's considered the newest arrival racial group because most of Asians came to America in recent 10-20 years. How can you justify these "no personality, no interpersonal skills, and little creativity" people doing so well in this society?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States#Race
http://www.bls.gov/cps/race_ethnicity_2008_10.htm http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003420 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003420
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 22:21:36 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Many Asian students in Computer Science are first generation immigrants, becaue it's easier to ..." Narcissistic personality disorder
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/narcissistic-personality-disorder/DS00652/DSECTION=symptoms
"Narcissistic personality disorder symptoms may include:
Believing that you're better than others
Fantasizing about power, success and attractiveness
Exaggerating your achievements or talents
Expecting constant praise and admiration
Believing that you're special and acting accordingly
Failing to recognize other people's emotions and feelings
Expecting others to go along with your ideas and plans
Taking advantage of others
Expressing disdain for those you feel are inferior
Being jealous of others
Believing that others are jealous of you
Trouble keeping healthy relationships
Setting unrealistic goals
Being easily hurt and rejected
Having a fragile self-esteem
Appearing as tough-minded or unemotional
"Although some features of narcissistic personality disorder may seem like having confidence or strong self-esteem, it's not the same. "
"And when you don't receive the special treatment to which you feel entitled, you may become very impatient or angry. " The Birthday card incident?
"You may insist on having "the best" of everything — the best car, athletic club, medical care or social circles, for instance." The restaurant incident? Best Daughters? Best husband?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003330 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003330
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 21:54:45 GMT
mandy wu wrote "Narcissistic personality disorderhttp://www.mayoclinic.com/health/narcissistic-personality-disorder/DS00652/DSECTION=symptoms..." Finally I found a journalist who is willing to write about what this story really signifies: http://blog.masslive.com/real_learning/2011/01/amy_chua_trophy_children_and_the_repercussions_of_intense_pressure.html
I am deeply moved by the many who have related their stories of abuse as well as all those who have stood up to Ms. Chua and her ilk on behalf of abused children everywhere. It makes me so proud of our country and culture.
It makes me sick that Ms. Chua should make money on this book. She should give every penny to help abused children. Also, the Wall Street Journal should do something to acknowledge the abuse related in the article. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003327 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003327
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 21:54:01 GMT
Jana Chicoine wrote "Finally I found a journalist who is willing to write about what this story ..." Wow, I can't believe a 25 year old "western" male wrote this! I love being reminded not to make assumptions though.
That said, I agree that many of the rather obvious American failings around us are due to a learned lack of initiative, or lack of training that would combat a natural lack of initiative and not due to a lack of potential or capability. Hearing people talk I have the impression that there is an American strain of thought that Asians are naturally smarter and may even have genetically superior intelligence. This is ridiculous not to mention it sounds like Nazi psychology (with us Americans being the Jews in the analogy and deciding for ourselves that we are inferior). I agree that in general as a nation, as parents, we need to cowboy up. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003322 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003322
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 21:51:50 GMT
Amy Raab wrote "Wow, I can't believe a 25 year old "western" male ..." I was raised in China. If my parents were anything like this, I would have committed a suicide by now.
Each child is different. I have a friend whose mother decided her college major, and she obeyed. She is not miserable and she is successful. But if my mother tells me what to do, I would do just the opposite.
If we sample all people that are successful (and what is "successfulness" anyways?), I bet we can find enough evidence to support virtually all parenting models. And haven't we heard enough stories about legendary figures with miserable childhood with no parenting at all?
I think any parent who sincerely cares about his/her child will find his/her way to be a good parent. Also, I love you, mom and dad. :) http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003312 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003312
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 21:49:45 GMT
Eric Lu wrote "I was raised in China. If my parents were anything like this, I would ..." Yeah, it's better to be a quitter and woman/mothers are not entitled to become upset.
You would prbably diagnose the child with ADD for not sitting at the piano and giver her some meds. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003271 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003271
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 21:37:27 GMT
Todd Transue wrote "Yeah, it's better to be a quitter and woman/mothers are not entitled to become upset. You would ..." This used to be my kind of mother, while growing up in a tiny little African country called Togo... http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003236 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003236
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 21:31:08 GMT
Dossevi Trenou wrote "This used to be my kind of mother, while growing up in a tiny little African ..." Dueling violins. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003220 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003220
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 21:26:15 GMT
PAUL JOHNSON wrote "Dueling violins." Let's go for 8000. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003217 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003217
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 21:25:38 GMT
PAUL JOHNSON wrote "Let's go for 8000." Exactly Matthew.
WSJ should feel shameful to put on such a despicable and racist title which offended both Chinese and non-Chinese parents. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003147 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003147
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 21:10:11 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Exactly Matthew. WSJ should feel shameful to put on such a despicable and racist title ..." You must have been one of the children who was not pushed as child. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003139 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003139
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 21:08:00 GMT
Ryan Sliva wrote "You must have been one of the children who was not pushed as child." Amy Chua nailed it with this article. Western parents are far to easy on thier children. I am a 25 year old 'western' male and firmly intend on raising my kids as a 'Chinese Mother' would. American children are not pushed to achieve thier potential anymore. You can see the affects of this throughout our society. Parents need to be more responsible for the growth and development of thier children and not accept anything other than the best. American children are capable. It is an intrisic laziness that parents must help children overcome. Thank you Amy. Hopefully all readers will learn something from this! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003135 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003135
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 21:07:07 GMT
Ryan Sliva wrote "Amy Chua nailed it with this article. Western parents are far to easy on thier children. ..." Tom, where your ancestors came from? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003105 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003105
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 21:00:56 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Tom, where your ancestors came from?" If she never saw a TV show, she may have a different sense of humor than the rest of us. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003104 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003104
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 21:00:45 GMT
Aaron Knight wrote "If she never saw a TV show, she may have a different sense of ..." That's probably right. I've been to Egypt where you can see a lot ugly things, including horrible human rights violations. But here in America who condemns Egypt? Moreover, Saudi Arabia is still a kingdom with absolute dictatorship, but who cares? It's our ally in Middle East!
Why? cuz we don't feel threatened yet from Eygpt ot Saudi Arabia. We don't feel insecure with them. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003094 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003094
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 20:58:16 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "That's probably right. I've been to Egypt where you can see a lot ..." What happens if there are two Chineese kids in the same class? Since they can't both be No. 1, do their mothers order them to fight to the death? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003082 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003082
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 20:54:49 GMT
Aaron Knight wrote "What happens if there are two Chineese kids in the same class? Since they can't both be No. ..." I would love to know if there is a marked difference in the American responses to this article according to age/generation. When I discussed it with some extended family members (albeit a small study group), my parents and aunts (they would all be in late 50s, early 60s) gave no real thought to the affects of Amy's parenting on her children but instead focused on how Amy's parenting would affect THEIR children- and grandchildren, really, in terms of future competition for jobs. My father was in a fluster about how "immigrants are raising their kids practicing math for hours and here's Amy (pointing his thumb over at me) talking about letting the kids dig up the backyard in the summer to look for fossils and artifacts."
My intention is to ask my grandparents, in their late 80s, what their response is to the article. I'm fairly certain they won't mention CPS but I'm curious and I'd give a tooth to know the ages of the posters here and if any general trends could be indentified. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003081 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003081
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 20:54:46 GMT
Amy Raab wrote "I would love to know if there is a marked difference in the American responses to this article according to ..." Wow, over 7,000 comments. I guess Americans waking up to the fact that our best days are behind us is enough to get everyone typing. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003071 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003071
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 20:52:00 GMT
CURTIS Dugger wrote "Wow, over 7,000 comments. I guess Americans waking up to the fact that ..." I think it is real cultural differences.
There were studies on culturally different perspectives.
Interestingly, Western people value individual decision (so parents value their children's own decision.)
It is totally opposite in Eastern (Asian people) (parents think they can provide best things to their children in whatever matters.)
From psychology field it's like: " Western moms ask their children what you want to eat for breakfast" while "Asian moms will decide best menu for their kids."
This kind of opposition is embedded all of the places, even in preparing food (Western food: people just provide stake with knife and fork: but Asian food: people cut meat for eaters serving with chopsticks.)
The main basis of these opposition is actually from opposed perspectives (viewing of the world) between Western and Asian (it does not really matter immigrant people; even possible the second generation of the Asian immigrant people.)
Western; people view the world from themselves. (very individualized); Asian (people view the world from others (so people tend to try to read what others think and serve what others need; This is considered as "respected" or "cared"; but in Western it will be considered totally opposite "ignoring my decision" or something unpleasant.)
I think we cannot really change these differences. But it is important to know we are different!
And in education, having both would make us powerful, I believe.
But of course I do not like real super mom like the mom presented in this article. (this mom seems to be an extreme case.)
But I guess that's the way she provided her love to her kids. and she might think that's the way to be a GOOD mom in more Asian oriented perspective.
At the end, I think whatever works for you is the best!!^^ http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003058 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2003058
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 20:49:17 GMT
Jin Kim wrote "I think it is real cultural differences. There were studies on culturally different perspectives. ..." http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703583404576080032661117462.html?mod=WSJ_article_related
"I wanted my daughters to learn from native Mandarin speakers, because my own native Chinese dialect is Fujianese [Hokkien], and my Mandarin accent is terrible." - so looks like she speaks Chinese but not too well .. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002978 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002978
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 20:25:48 GMT
Remy Le Beau wrote "http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703583404576080032661117462.html?mod=WSJ_article_related"I wanted ..." After coming here every day, it is my obligation to leave my note. It is fun reading these comments, many of the comments reveal people’s true dark side, how often can you see this? Also, I am glad to see that, in many people’s mind, discipline and creativity is a zero-sum game. Keep it on my friends! That is why U.S. is such a wonderful land for hard working immigrants. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002932 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002932
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 20:11:50 GMT
Yujie Chen wrote "After coming here every day, it is my obligation to leave my note. It is ..." She is a narcissist. And it's the book all about.
She can't stand that Lulu rebel her parenting and she feel her status is challenged. she feel the need to defend herself by writing this book and tried to convince herself and her family that she is still right and an authority figure. I feel so sorry for Lulu that she has to go through her mother's mental abuse all over again for publishing the book so soon after her rebellion.
http://winning-teams.com/recognizenarcissist.html
"It is difficult to recognize a narcissist because he (or she) spends all of his time acting, protecting his ego by presenting to the world a mask, a false image of himself."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002920 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002920
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 20:07:23 GMT
mandy wu wrote "She is a narcissist. And it's the book all about.She can't stand that Lulu rebel ..." I read the article after my wife told me about it. I grew up in India and in a boarding school all along my education (since 5 yrs old) and I got to be with my parents only 2 months per year till I finished my post graduation. This was due to the fact they were in a remote area serving as missionaries.
It takes a lot for Indian kids to develop self confidence because of this comparitive and demanding attitude of parenting. Right until you get a job, you are dependent on your parents and then it is undestood to be payback time. Now, working in the USA, I see the confidence of my counterparts and 'am amazed at their self sustenance and confidence. This could be b'coz of the culture when the kids move out @ 18 and live to learn , grow, be self confident.
I do respect my parents and share a close bonding .... and I think if they hadn't let me be in boarding school, I wouldn't be in the US today.... and feel grateful to God for them. Also, they let me choose the field I was interested in 'Computers'. Most Indian kids do not have that choice. My wife was interested in English Literature but was told by her dad that she can choose to study 'Computers' or go and graze flocks. The after-effects of that parenting style is something we are growing out of now.
I have a daughter and we plan to let her choose what she would be interested in. As parents, we plan to help her find what she would be interested in and that would be our duty. My wife is able to pursue her dream of being in the literary world by writing poems, reading them in community events and attending workshops now in the USA. I admire the western style of upbringing and wish there was a little more control so that kids will stay focussed rather than the hard hearted and demanding eastern style.
Perhaps 20 years from now I can write to WSJ about how a hybrid model worked for my kid. God Bless.
Regards
John http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002912 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002912
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 20:04:05 GMT
John Kingsly Masilamani wrote "I read the article after my wife told me about it. I ..." How do you know?
I read somewhere else that she didn't.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/20/books/20book.html?_r=1
"She and her husband, another Yale law professor, hired a Chinese nanny to speak Mandarin, though Ms. Chua doesn’t speak it herself. " http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002863 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002863
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 19:42:20 GMT
mandy wu wrote "How do you know?I read somewhere else that she didn't...." She is narcissist. And it's the book all about.
She can't stand that Lulu rebel her parenting and she feel her status is challenged. she feel the need to defend herself by writing this book and tried to convince herself and her family that she is still right and an authority figure. I feel so sorry for Lulu that she has to go through her mother's mental abuse all over again for publishing the book so soon after her rebellion.
http://winning-teams.com/recognizenarcissist.html
"It is difficult to recognize a narcissist because he (or she) spends all of his time acting, protecting his ego by presenting to the world a mask, a false image of himself." http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002856 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002856
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 19:39:47 GMT
mandy wu wrote "She is narcissist. And it's the book all about. She can't stand that Lulu rebel ..." "Read the article first. She identifies as being a : Chinese mother throughout. What does it matter WHERE she is from, when she evidently idetifies herself with being a chinese mother, What is so hard to get."
So if a Nth generation black American guy say or claim something about his African heritage, then you are gonna take it for granted for the whole Africa? Come on, don't you have the basic wisdom and logic to analyse?
When Amy Chua mentioned Chinese Mothers, she meant her Chinese heritage or culture relative to her ethnic background, NOT the Chinese people currently living in China or the country as China. Just like when we talk about Michael Jordan being a black basketball player, it has nothing to do with the black people currently living in Africa.
Why it's so hard to get it? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002855 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002855
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 19:39:46 GMT
Alan Yu wrote ""Read the article first. She identifies as being a : Chinese mother throughout. ..." The book did not write much about how both her daughters get straight As. Apparently getting As were not hard for them. Reminds me my classmate in college who did not seem to study much (unlike me) but still get As all the time.
Since we promote individualism, I just don't see how on earth all kids are equally telanted nowadays. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002845 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002845
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 19:37:50 GMT
Y Huang wrote "The book did not write much about how both her daughters get ..." I'd say the US is the smarter part of this equation.... http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002840 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002840
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 19:36:41 GMT
tom merle wrote "I'd say the US is the smarter part of this equation...." As a Beijing-born, Boston-educated Chinese American who have lived and worked in both countries , I deeply feel this article is based on stereotyped, generalized personal observation(or her own experience) on cross-border parenting subject. And, mostly surprised is that written by a teaching faculty member at Yale.
I wonder it is for self-marketing and promotion reason to create a drama to debate or not .But, I would not even look at the book at all. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002710 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002710
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 19:05:48 GMT
Parker Hsu wrote "As a Beijing-born, Boston-educated Chinese American who have lived and worked in ..." I enjoyed reading many of the posts here, especially from those who provide insight and perspective, or recount their personal experiences, as a child or parent. While some of the stories are truly tragic, I am mindful that outcomes, irrespective of methods deployed, often depend to a large degree on the skill of parent, or practitioner, as well on the individual child. Knowing and listening to your child is a necessary ingredient, under any method.
Ms. Chua is obviously a very intelligent person and understands her children far better than any of us could. Therefore, I am not willing to pass judgement on her, or her children, based on one short article, especially after learning that the article and title were crafted by the WSJ. Her book is a memoir, not a polemic, or how-to book. At Amazon, highly favorable reviews of her book (“5”) are running ahead of highly negative ones (“1”), by a margin of 73-51. Readers either love or hate the book, with the 5 and 1 ratings represent 3/4 of all reviews. (Reviews with a 4 or 2 are about even, 14-13.)
As a parent, I am more aligned with the modified methods Ms. Chua uses towards the end of her self-described journey, rather than the methods she uses early on, as depicted in the WSJ article. She is continuing to evolve and learn, as I believe all caring and intelligent parents do. The uproar created by the WSJ article will undoubtedly contribute to this learning process. In the real world, Ms. Chua’s children, being double minorities, will face many challenges, including prejudice as exemplified by some WSJ posters. Ms. Chua is equipping her children with the self-confidence and mental-toughness to succeed in the real world.
Several posts have cited the paucity of Asian CEO’s in the Fortune 500 as proof that the Western parenting method is better, and with the implicit assumption that all non-Asian CEOs were raised by a “Western mom.” In reality, there are many factors that impact who becomes a CEO. Or who becomes the president or prime minister of a country for that matter. Females comprise 51% of the US population, and yet there are only 12 female CEO’s in the Fortune 500. (Two are Asian Americans, Andrea Jung and Indra Nooyi.) And countries such as Great Britain, France, Germany, Canada, Brazil, Australia, Ireland, India, among others, have had a female head of state, but not the US, as of yet.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002697 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002697
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 19:03:20 GMT
Justin Wright wrote "I enjoyed reading many of the posts here, especially from those who ..." Did you even read the article? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002669 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002669
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 18:57:46 GMT
Vicky Wu wrote "Did you even read the article?" Those Asian students with personality, interpersonal skills and creativity will run away from you like hell! Who wants to interact with such a prejudiced person? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002665 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002665
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 18:55:57 GMT
Chunyan Li wrote "Those Asian students with personality, interpersonal skills and creativity will run away from ..." As a Beijing-born, Boston-educated Chinese American who have lived and worked in both countries , I deeply feel this article is based on stereotyped, generalized personal observation(or her own experience) on cross-border parenting subject. And, mostly surprised is that written by a teaching faculty member at Yale.
I wonder it is for self-marketing and promotion reason to create a drama to debate or not .But, I would not even look at the book at all. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002663 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002663
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 18:55:30 GMT
Parker Hsu wrote "As a Beijing-born, Boston-educated Chinese American who have lived and worked in ..." Parenting method is a personal choice. If the advice sounds good and works for you, take it, otherwise leave it and continue on what's the best for you and for your kids.
But, if you are a parent and want the kids to be successful, or just above average, then the kids need to work. That’s simple.
As normal and average as most of us are, to ‘get by’ our daily life and activities, to achieve certain economic level that can support basic needs, all requires hard working. This is no short cut.
There is no perfect educational system that meets everyone’s needs or wants. That’s why parenting plays so much important role.
I have found and also observed that given similar socioeconomic background and opportunities, parenting plays decisive role in whether the kids are well-educated to be good citizens, to be decent contributors to the society in a long run.
Loosely speaking, parenting is like ‘investment’, and it does require the right composites, the proper indexes and diversities in key areas, i.e. IQ and EQ.
There are general rules to maximize the gains or to minimize the loss. One of the rules is defined as “Human capital” that is the “the stock of competences, knowledge and personality attributes embodied in the ability to perform labor so as to produce economic value”.
Harvard Professor, Dr. Michael Sandel in his popular books << Justice, what’s the right thing to do>> stated that it is a human nature to “… maximize happiness “ … find the balance “ .. between the pleasure and over pain”.
No pain, no gain. Anyone who wants to achieve a little success in anything would need good education, good training, prolonged personal dedication, commitment and diligence.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002596 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002596
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 18:40:36 GMT
Lucy Yang wrote "Parenting method is a personal choice. If the advice sounds good and works for you, take it, ..." China is not her native land. This argument is far fetched. Her parents immigrated from the Philippines! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002582 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002582
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 18:36:42 GMT
Chunyan Li wrote "China is not her native land. This argument is far fetched. Her parents immigrated ..." Totally agree. How can you say one parenting style is better than the other since each child is so different? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002539 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002539
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 18:26:09 GMT
Diane Chen wrote "Totally agree. How can you say one parenting style is better ..." Very well said. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002524 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002524
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 18:22:34 GMT
Diane Chen wrote "Very well said." Pedro, what a creative link to connect parenting to Mao! Below are from other posts on Asian Americans. Guess we are around during these years?
Charles K. Kao, Physics, 2009
Roger Y. Tsien, Chemistry, 2008
Gao Xingjian*, Literature, 2000
Daniel C. Tsui, Physics, 1998
Edmond H. Fischer*, Medicine/Physiology, 1992
Tenzin Gyatso (The 14th Dalai Lama), Peace, 1989
Samuel C. C. Ting, Physics, 1976
Chen Ning Yang, Physics, 1957
Tsung-Dao Lee, Physics, 1957
Walter Houser Brattain*, Physics, 1956
Hong Kong, China:
Charles K. Kao, Physics, 2009
Taiwan (Republic of China) :
Yuan Tseh Lee, Chemistry, 1986
Charles Wang founded Computer Associates, Jerry Yang founded Yahoo, Steve Chen founded Youtube, Yanhong Li founded Baidu. They all made outstanding contributions to the society.
Fashion designer and mogul Vera Wang, who is famous for designing dresses for high-profile celebrities, started a clothing company, named after herself, which now offers a broad range of luxury fashion products. An Wang founded Wang Laboratories in June 1951. Amar Bose founded the Bose Corporation in 1964. Charles Wang founded Computer Associates, later became its CEO and chairman. Jen-Hsun Huang co-founded the NVIDIA corporation in 1993. Jerry Yang co-founded Yahoo! Inc. in 1994 and became its CEO later. Andrea Jung serves as Chairman and CEO of Avon Products. Vinod Khosla was a founding CEO of Sun Microsystems and is a general partner of the prominent venture capital firm Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers. Steve Chen and Jawed Karim were co-creators of YouTube, and were beneficiaries of Google's $1.65 billion acquisition of that company in 2006. In addition to contributing greatly to other fields, Asian Americans have made considerable contributions in science and technology in the United States, in such prominent innovative R&D regions as Silicon Valley and The Triangle.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002518 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002518
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 18:20:55 GMT
Austin Jia wrote "Pedro, what a creative link to connect parenting to Mao! Below are from other ..." So I guess that you are now leading these Asian who has " no personality, no interpersonal skills and little creativity". Good for you. You must be making a boat load of money over these Asians. Aren't you happy? Then why so angry?
Notice that you didn't mention the founders of yahoo.com, YouTube.com and zappos.com.
You said that "in most colleges probably only about 10% of computer students are white". Are you sure? Such insult to white.
My definition of success is "being a productive member of society". I already feel sorry for your children. What if they can't or they don't want to be CEOs since you are only measure of success is "being a CEO".
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002475 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002475
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 18:12:33 GMT
Diane Chen wrote "So I guess that you are now leading these Asian who has " no ..." Let us know when you are leading a multibillion dollar company. Until then, keep in mind that the vast majority of people of any race are working for others. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002440 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002440
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 18:07:50 GMT
WARREN DEW wrote "Let us know when you are leading a multibillion dollar company. Until then, ..." That is the craziest thing I ever witness in my life. Petition? that is stupid. Don't you have a common sense ? Did you read her daughter's response ? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002404 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002404
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 18:00:56 GMT
Y Huang wrote "That is the craziest thing I ever witness in my life. Petition? that is stupid. Don't ..." While it is politically incorrect and "disturbing" to acknowledge the role of IQ and other personality traits that get passed through our biological beings, the science backs this up. The Chuas had to be able to take advantage of and provide the training: a combination of subjugation and mastery by the numbers. To dismiss the nature part of the equation by calling it fright names like Eugenics does nothing to advance the discussion which is actually quite serious and need not be treated in a tabloid manner. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002361 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002361
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 17:51:28 GMT
tom merle wrote "While it is politically incorrect and "disturbing" to acknowledge the role of IQ and other personality ..." I don't get the last part. How did you make student from C to A+? Any tricks ? I found it hard.
Once I was invited to talk about how to learn computer effectively, I said to a roomfully of freshmen "Think the same way as a computer does and you will find it easy", but I didn't think they get it. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002358 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002358
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 17:50:48 GMT
Y Huang wrote "I don't get the last part. How did you make student ..." People are not born as blank slates. They are born with various capacities to act in certain ways. Sure it takes proper nurturing to bring out those traits, so yes the ground must be fertile. But the sprig has to have the potential to grow in a certain way. Gypsies/Roma just wouldn't take to the Chua method of child rearing. I know, a taboo topic. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002325 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002325
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 17:43:44 GMT
tom merle wrote "People are not born as blank slates. They are born with various capacities to act in certain ways. ..." Hi Doe, success, money, get rich fast... "Wall Street". Ring a bell buddy? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002304 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002304
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 17:39:39 GMT
LAWRENCE WANG wrote "Hi Doe, success, money, get rich fast... "Wall Street". ..." You have to consider that after centuries of imperial institutions that require mastery and subjugation, the succeeding generations begin to "absorb" certain proclivities/dispositions/traits into their genetic make up. This is why we see specific sets of characteristics associated with Italy, France, Germany, Russia etc. Culture is the result of the interplay of nature and nurture. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002299 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002299
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 17:38:25 GMT
tom merle wrote "You have to consider that after centuries of imperial institutions that require mastery and subjugation, the ..." It is always easier to have someone else discipline the kids. Even Chinese have that saying:"Switching children and teach." I guess Amy Chua has no choice but to be the mean one, since her husband is, guess what, too Western. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002196 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002196
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 17:19:56 GMT
Austin Jia wrote "It is always easier to have someone else discipline the kids. Even Chinese have that ..." As a Chinese daughther brough up by a tiger mom, I have been following this article. When I read your comment I feel great relieve that there is at least another Chinese that is sensable and not all about being number one, rich, and have 'face'. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002189 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002189
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 17:18:07 GMT
Stephanie Miller wrote "As a Chinese daughther brough up by a tiger mom, I have been following this ..." As a Chinese immigrant myself and being raised in Beijing, I enjoyed the author’s perspectives on the cultural differences, even though I do find some of her descriptions are exaggerated and stereotypical ((e.g. when Chinese students come back with a B, there will be screaming and hair pulling? Come on~). I do want to point out, maybe even send some caution if you plan to take this article as an introduction to Chinese parenting. I think this article may be more applicable to "Chinese immigrant parents", as opposed to "Chinese parents" in general. Without our roots here, we Chinese immigrants feel less secure and have more desire to work hard and excel at what we do. This feeling definitely translate into the parenting style of Chinese immigrants. Therefore on the surface, Chinese immigrants may seem stricter with their kids. But if you take a look at how kids are raised in mainland China, especially considering the only-child policy, you might see a different picture. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002187 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002187
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 17:17:55 GMT
Stephanie Xi wrote "As a Chinese immigrant myself and being raised in Beijing, I enjoyed the author’s perspectives on the ..." And Eric, you are sensible enough to recognize their sacrifice! I am sure many more are like you! Your parents surely raised you well. Sincere thanks for your insights. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002181 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002181
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 17:16:53 GMT
Austin Jia wrote "And Eric, you are sensible enough to recognize their sacrifice! I am sure many ..." As a Chinese immigrant myself and being raised in Beijing, I enjoyed the author’s perspectives on the cultural differences, even though I do find some of her descriptions are exaggerated and stereotypical ((e.g. when Chinese students come back with a B, there will be screaming and hair pulling? Come on~). I do want to point out, maybe even send some caution if you plan to take this article as an introduction to Chinese parenting. I think this article may be more applicable to "Chinese immigrant parents", as opposed to "Chinese parents" in general. Without our roots here, we Chinese immigrants feel less secure and have more desire to work hard and excel at what we do. This feeling definitely translate into the parenting style of Chinese immigrants. Therefore on the surface, Chinese immigrants may seem stricter with their kids. But if you take a look at how kids are raised in mainland China, especially considering the only-child policy, you might see a different picture. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002178 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002178
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 17:16:36 GMT
Stephanie Xi wrote "As a Chinese immigrant myself and being raised in Beijing, I enjoyed the author’s perspectives on the ..." I would like to see a comparative study at, say, 50 years of age comparing outcomes between the various parenting styles interms of professional, social and personal happiness achievement. My guess is there would be a normal distribution over all parenting styles. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002167 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002167
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 17:14:47 GMT
Michael Bauer wrote "I would like to see a comparative study at, say, 50 years of age ..." I always thought comparing Chinese American to general population in US is unfair. Immigrants through college education are smart or working hard or both. The immigration experience is a selection process which weeds out most of the mediocres.
The average population in China is similar to average population in US in term of hardward. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002144 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002144
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 17:09:24 GMT
Y Huang wrote "I always thought comparing Chinese American to general population in US is unfair. ..." So well said, and this White Man, according to Amy Chua:"only worries about writing his own books and his own future." http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002136 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002136
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 17:06:57 GMT
Austin Jia wrote "So well said, and this White Man, according to Amy Chua:"only ..." I feel sorry for Lulu she has learned two things: music makes people scream and throw temper tantrums and this is what it means to be a mother and a woman. If you don't get your way you name call, threaten, and emotionally abuse the person untill they give in.(And did you notice Lulu's behavior kicking thrashing destroying the music way to go mom she's just like you)
I agree that often Westerners give up too quickly and can be lax witht their expectations but the article is filled with logic flaws The article would have us believe that all Chinese children get A's are number 1 and are musical prodigies. They can't all be number 1 someone is the unlucky two. And if this is indeed the case then China is an entire nation of straight A musical geniusess hmmmm... really?
And this misconception "Once a child starts to excel at something—whether it's math, piano, pitching or ballet—he or she gets praise, admiration and satisfaction. This builds confidence and makes the once not-fun activity fun. " Children may enjoy or feel anxiety riddren and compulsively driven. You have shut down the enjoyment factor completely. The best violinist in my high school shook uncontrollably and eventually needed anxiety medication. Now, the second violinist loved what she did and was not only calm while playing but happy! Driving someone as opposed to capitalizing on their strengths creates an adult who will break under pressure. It's common sense if you are not good in math don't be a mathematician. There are enough options in the world for growth and oppurtunity. Parents do need to teach their children how to work and it is difficult.But parenting is an art. You want to help the child stretch to the next level. And there may be some resistance and you help the child and you stay firm. It's like a rubberband you can pull it taut but if you go to far the band will break.
"If a Chinese child gets a B—which would never happen—there would first be a screaming, hair-tearing explosion. The devastated Chinese mother would then get dozens, maybe hundreds of practice tests and work through them with her child for as long as it takes to get the grade up to an A. " What a sad expressiion of love."
I could be wrong but somehow I think there are some Chinese children that get B's or even have learning disabilities. And what then how much shame is placed on that child by the people they turn to for help?
Heidi Seifert
LCSW-R, MA
www.nycpsychotherapist.org http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002124 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002124
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 17:04:12 GMT
Heidi Seifert wrote "I feel sorry for Lulu she has learned two things: music ..." Chinese mothers are different. Good parents are superior. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002104 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002104
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 17:00:05 GMT
Matthew Roha wrote "Chinese mothers are different. Good parents are superior." Is this article the most e-mailed ever for the WSJ. Is it the most commented on as well? My guess is a half million people may end up reading this article. Pretty amazing. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002094 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002094
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 16:58:32 GMT
George Hollister wrote "Is this article the most e-mailed ever for the WSJ. Is it the most commented on as well? My ..." Good to check out the upbringing of Americans who are on the forefront of creating our innovations. At some point they all learned discipline, how to get things done, personal responsibility, etc. Not fun things to learn, and people are not born with these personal habits. So it either comes from a parent who requires a child to do what is unpleasant to be accomplished. Or it comes from somewhere else; the school of hard knocks or the military. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002082 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002082
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 16:55:43 GMT
George Hollister wrote "Good to check out the upbringing of Americans who are on the forefront of creating our innovations. At ..." I bet his son would find math easy, possibly find all subjects easy.
If you ever have college classmates that have incredible brian powers, in both memory and ananlytics, you would easily understand. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002036 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2002036
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 16:48:11 GMT
Y Huang wrote "I bet his son would find math easy, possibly find ..." While I agree with you to certain point, but I think greed is part of human nature. It's same ugly thing all over the world.
For example, Americans don't want to get rich quick? Apart from all the wars for oil, who on the earth designed all those financial tricks to almost bankrupt our country and shaked down the whole world? Was that done by Chinese, or Americans?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001986 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001986
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 16:33:20 GMT
John Mackay wrote "While I agree with you to certain point, but I think greed is part of ..." Sure, the west could stand to improve it's educational system, but do we really want a society of robots, or a society of thinking, breathing, loving individualistic little people who, without abuse, can still make the grade. While this "Eastern" mother may find our ways weak, I would remind her that the wealth she shares, the technology she uses, the the medicines she depends on, the educational system she bases her livelihood on, are all come from children raised on these weaker Western" standards she openly deplores. Nobel prizes aren't awarded to machines. They are awarded to creative problem solvers, something we in the West should be quite proud of. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001965 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001965
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 16:27:45 GMT
Sylvain Metz wrote "Sure, the west could stand to improve it's educational system, but do we really ..." Do some simple research on Science and Civilization in China and find out. To help you out, here is from John Mackay in an earlier post, read it for yourself:"Maybe we can still say White Americans are dominating the inventions or entrepreneur pioneering, which I reasonably doubt. But take a look at today's America and next generation Americans, take a close look at our top university campus, what do you see different demographically compared to 20 years ago? Take a close look at the 300 semifinalists of the Intel Science Talent Search competition, the nation’s most prestigious pre-college science contest, how many of them are Asians? Chinese Americans alone takes 1/3 !(http://www.societyforscience.org/STS). The truth is I was stunned when I looked at the picture! This is not a contest based on academics but the combination of knowledge, creativity, imaginativity and how to implement. Are they or most of them just bunch of robots with low self-esteem and without creativity? Don't fool yourself. And don't forget, most of Asian/Chinese immigrants came to this land after 1980's. So most of these Asian American kids are probably only the second generation. I'm glad these brilliant and intelligent young people are America's young blood.
I am not trying to speak for anybody but I do notice the indisputable fact in recent years. What I wanted to say is that, no matter how you argue, the best way to meet the challenge is to understand why this is happening and be well prepared. The future competition is ruthless.
Of course, if you say, I don't care. I just want my kids to be happy, even being a hobo, then I've got nothing to say. " http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001964 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001964
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 16:27:37 GMT
Austin Jia wrote "Do some simple research on Science and Civilization in China and find out. To help ..." If you read Chua's interview and book, you'll find out that her younger daughter quit violin and plays tennis now. Maybe the daughter will become the next Serena Williams! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001936 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001936
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 16:20:17 GMT
Austin Jia wrote "If you read Chua's interview and book, you'll find out that her younger ..." Ms. Chua, I feel compelled to point out that while you may feel this type of parenting approach is good for your children/others children, and that it will not cause long term psychological damage or hurt their self esteem, there is striking evidence to the contrary. I urge you to read the following article or any of the others out there regarding this tragedy....http://www.kmbc.com/r/4883301/detail.html In summary, a 16 year old girl named Esmie Tseng, of Overland Park, Kansas stabbed her Chinese mother to death in August 2005. Her friends said that her Mother raised her with the kind of parenting style that you subscribe to: demanding perfection, hours of practicing, only straight A's allowed, all work - no fun. Esme apparently had enough. I'm certainly not saying what this young woman did was justified, or that her Mother deserved to die, but it should point out to you that the kind of parenting you recommend certainly isn't foolproof, and doesn't come without a price. In light of this tragedy (I knew the girl and her family) I certainly don't think this kind of parenting makes you superior. After all, what's all the success and straight A's in the world worth if in the end you ruin your life and end someone else's? Esme I suppose would tell you it wasn't worth it....but then maybe you'd just tell her she was garbage/pathetic and needed to suck it up. Either way, I hope you never know this kind of tragedy and you're not as unlucky of a Mother as she was for her choices in child rearing. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001898 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001898
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 16:11:26 GMT
Stephannie Froehlich wrote "Ms. Chua, I feel compelled to point out that while you may ..." I would prefer we stick to the topic of parenting here. However, since you are talking about how obsessed Chinese in China are about money. I would like to put my two cents in here:
Don't you think that what you just described here is the formula of pure capitalism? Anything for a buck. My personal opinion is that China today is much more capitalistic than US. We are half-way to a socialist society, don't you think?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001854 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001854
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 16:01:19 GMT
Diane Chen wrote "I would prefer we stick to the topic of parenting here. However, since ..." What a perfect example of self righteousness going into the extreme! A petition? Oh come on, who is so pure to throw the first stone? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001849 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001849
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 16:00:46 GMT
Austin Jia wrote "What a perfect example of self righteousness going into the extreme! A petition? Oh come on, ..." Please enlighten me the connection between Amy Chua, a second generation Chinese-Philippine-American and China.
If you want to condemn a county, please get your facts straight. For starters, China is around over 5000 years. Please stick to the topic of parenting.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001787 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001787
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 15:43:51 GMT
Diane Chen wrote "Please enlighten me the connection between Amy Chua, a second generation Chinese-..." James Ellory the thriller writer wanted his mother dead and she was murdered in a week. I would have prayed for a gruesome death for her daily if I had a mother like AMY CHUA. I always hated authority and mother or father is no exception.I don't subscribe to any parenting ideology or methodology. As MAD Magazine once said, before the digital era, parenting is like photography: you enjoy it but are never sure of the outcome. Amy Chua is a Yale Law Professor? That monster should be behind bars for child abuse. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001771 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001771
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 15:39:48 GMT
VILAS VISWANATHAN wrote "James Ellory the thriller writer wanted his mother dead and she was murdered in a ..." Please enlighten me the connection between Amy Chua, a second generation Chinese-Philippine-American and China.
Is any of your behaviors the responsibility of the county that your ancestors coming from? I am assuming that you are not native American, are you?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001745 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001745
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 15:34:50 GMT
Diane Chen wrote "Please enlighten me the connection between Amy Chua, a second generation Chinese-..." I suppose it might be because people can become quite insecure, especially given China's rise. Chua was born and raised in the US, and her parents did not even come from China, yet see how many self righteous people condemn China and its civilization, see how many people who don't know a thing about China proudly exhibited their ignorance and prejudice here. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001682 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001682
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 15:19:09 GMT
Austin Jia wrote "I suppose it might be because people can become quite insecure, especially ..." WOW-- you mean public housing and the federal government replacing fathers in millions of homes doesn't work?? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001647 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001647
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 15:12:44 GMT
BEN HUMPHRIES wrote "WOW-- you mean public housing and the federal government replacing fathers in millions of ..." In a land where only 1 child is allowed and if it is a girl they may just decide to kill them young, I appreciate the effort to laud their humanitarian skills. Bad title for the article, but interesting read. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001599 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001599
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 15:00:43 GMT
SHEILA CUNHA wrote "In a land where only 1 child is allowed and if it is a girl they may just decide to ..." Mr. Cheng,
I do not think hard work is something exclusively Chinese. I remember hard work being an American virtue in the early part of the century. I also do not think we are preprogrammed with DNA to succeed. I agree it comes easier to some people than others but there are plenty of exceptionally bright and successful people coming from poor to lower middle class families that succeed.
What Ms. Chua neglects is that good parenting is not something unique to a culture or nationality but rather a condition of one's individuality. The extreme to which she takes it though is questionable as being able to interact in one's social environment is just as important as solving algorithms, perhaps even more so. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001598 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001598
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 15:00:41 GMT
Frank Melaccio wrote "Mr. Cheng, I do not think hard work is something exclusively Chinese. ..." It said nothing new. Most immigrant parents are like this. Doesn't the author say as much? The title grab peoples attention.....the number or reads and comments put it at the top of lists prominent on the front page, and from there popularity was self fulfilling. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001553 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001553
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 14:47:53 GMT
Kurt McFarlane wrote "It said nothing new. Most immigrant parents are like this. Doesn't the author say as ..." Hey Rick, so THAT is the reason why China is now the US's biggest creditor. Absolutely fascinating. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001516 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001516
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 14:38:46 GMT
LAWRENCE WANG wrote "Hey Rick, so THAT is the reason why China is now the US's biggest creditor. ..." I can't believe people are defending Chua, especially with all the heartbreaking testimonies of abuse that her article triggered. Liana you are doing a great job showing that she is simply an abuser and really has no defense. I think the WSJ at this point is trying to protect her and that they don't know how to respond to the outpouring of survivors' stories. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001505 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001505
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 14:36:25 GMT
Jana Chicoine wrote "I can't believe people are defending Chua, especially with all the heartbreaking testimonies of ..." I don't know what the hype is all about. The book is just a narration of her own story. She's not telling other people how to raise their own child. I wish people would stop putting words in her mouth.
Also, people are assuming that the Tiger mom's parenting is representative of China's. Therefore, they also attack China. If people knew how to read better, all these misinterpretation and putting words in the author's mouth would not have occurred. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001484 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001484
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 14:30:45 GMT
Liu Wen wrote "I don't know what the hype is all about. The book is just a narration of ..." Very interesting point of view but I believe a blend of Chinese and Western parenting is most likely the best solution as the human race continues to evolve. On a lighter note, this article brought to mind a funny clip of "The Family Guy" let is also pushing the limits stereotypes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIDmoBmCYD0 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001192 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001192
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 12:47:40 GMT
Stephen Day wrote "Very interesting point of view but I believe a blend of Chinese and Western parenting is ..." If you dig a little deeper, you'll find the painters you observed are in fact driven by money, not art. Too many people in the Chinese societies today measure success by money, and that's a sad fact few of us dare to openly concede.
Many think the number 8 is considered lucky by Chinese because it sounds similar to the Chinese word for "Get Rich". In fact, that' not the right translation. It's actually the word for "Get Rich Instantly". Having a single word to represent a rather complex idea goes a long way to prove Chinese's obsession with being rich/successful. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001178 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001178
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 12:34:45 GMT
Chris Doe wrote "If you dig a little deeper, you'll find the painters you observed are in fact ..." China has been around for over 2000 years and the US only 200 or so. China is still playing catch up with the US and most of the Chinese are without human rights and living in a totalitarian dictatorship. Now you guess which is better http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001167 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001167
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 12:27:25 GMT
Rick Geiger wrote "China has been around for over 2000 years and the US only 200 or ..." Thank you, Jane, for the link. As a special needs parent I appreciate what was stated and how it was stated.
Have a great weekend!! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001152 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001152
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 12:18:29 GMT
Jarred Burchard wrote "Thank you, Jane, for the link. As a special needs parent I appreciate what was ..." Thank you for your reply Chunyan. But how has producing 15 MAJOR inventions per century significantly improved the average Chines person's way of life? My observations on China's history, over the last 100 years are:
1) None of the inventions by the Chinese (I am not saying that many other countries have done any better) have contributed to creating an enlightened Chinese society where everybody has prospered on an equal basis.
2) Probably more so than any other country, China has sacrificed the principle of fairness, democracy, the environment and, possibly, worldwide economic stability for the single minded goal of projecting raw power on a global level. There is no freedom for Tibet; one cannot drink the water straight from 90% of the rivers in China and; China artificially holds its currency in check.
3) A couple of questions for you on the inventors you mentioned in your reply. Were they educated in China or the US? Had they been working with other brilliant, or not so brilliant, people in teams trying to accomplish a common goal? My point is that most inventions have occurred as a result of groups of people working together to accomplish a common goal. And, especially over the last 50 years, those inventions came as a result of an American or European-subsidized education.
It is real unfortunate that a polarizing figure, like Amy Chua, has to ignite a debate about the virtues espoused by one culture versus those of another. But, since our two countries find ourselves in a unique, but mutually estranged, partnership, now is the best time for us to work out are differences. Who knows....we may actually invent a civilized and mutually beneficial arrangement before our leaders do.
Have a great Friday!! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001127 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001127
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 12:02:39 GMT
Jarred Burchard wrote "Thank you for your reply Chunyan. But how has producing 15 MAJOR ..." You ask what better contributions to the country than to educate more talented students? That completely depends on what talents they have been encouraged to let stagnate. No one will ever know if either of them possesses a mind capable of something greater and more urgently required by society or the future. It does not appear as though natural interests or inclinations were encouraged let alone guided toward their most useful capacity. That is always the great unknown tragedy, potential unexplored. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001073 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001073
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 11:25:26 GMT
Patricia Taber wrote "You ask what better contributions to the country than to educate more talented ..." @ Mr. Cheng - Actually in the realm of music, it's not the players who must win, but the world of music that must win by being enriched through the passion and vision of a real musician's contributions to that world and by extension the world at large. There is a huge difference between someone who can play an instrument (however perfectly) and a musician. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001064 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001064
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 11:19:28 GMT
Patricia Taber wrote "@ Mr. Cheng - Actually in the realm of music, it's not the players who must win, but the world of ..." im not criticizing anyone or anything but, we all must see both sides. we must first see the Western point of view before u criticize or agree with this article. im also a chinese, but, we must also accept the fact that the westerners also have raised brilliant kids. Every method has its advantages and disadvantages. Before we come to a conclusion, we must first do the 3 Cs. Corroboration, consistency and credibility. Oh and, whats wrong with participating in a play? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001017 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001017
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 10:14:50 GMT
Hoa Jae Chew wrote "im not criticizing anyone or anything but, we all must see both sides. ..." "Mr Cheng",
seriously, for someone so successful and genetically superior, you have an exhorbitant amount of free time on your hands to waste on your prolific comments.
1) If you're such a genetically superior genius as you posit in your responses, then why is that your grammar and syntax is at a 4th grade level? I dont care that english isn't your first language. You have no excuse other than your own lack of education (or genetic ability/poor parenting as you would say).
2) what is your obsession with amy chua's "EEC professor" father? you make it sound like he's the master race. Seriously, get your obsession in check. no one knows who her father is, let alone cares about his fleeting relevance to the original article.
3) get over yourself. did you seriously just claim that you have the answer to the current economic crisis in america? you, you alone? "But, be honest with you, when you have so many talents, this country can NOT take advantage of all of them." Obviously, mastering foreign languages is NOT one of your many talents.
4) are you really advocating eugenics? Frankly, I find your talk of superior genetics to be disturbing. Amy Chua's article was an argument in favor of "nurture" over nature, not the other way around. yet you can't help yourself with your giddy references to some pseudo asian intelligence superiority.
end rant.
Now to the original topic.
Amy Chua's article reads like a manifesto for creating mindless overachievers with absolutely no sense of self or identity. Her children are simply living manifestations of her prejudice and ignorance. Having denied them from an early age of any original thoughts and desires, she has pigeon-holed them into a life of very limited possibilities. Sure, they'll probably be successful by most standards, but will they discover the cure to cancer or succeed in any discipline that actually requires genuine creativity and synthesis? It's unlikely.
Amy Chua's philosophy on child rearing is a sickeningly disturbing reality that robs children of their individuality and freedom of self-discovery. For all intents and purposes, children raised in this manner are no more than indentured servants to the totalitarian parents. They are guilted, scorned and psychologically manipulated into blindly following the narrow-minded teachings of their parents. By the time their children escape the iron fist education of their parents, it's too late for them embark upon any kind of real self-discovery. Instead, they get married, and have kids of their own so that they can forever perpetuate their parents' teachings because it's the only reality they will ever know. It's extremely saddening to think of an individual being robbed of their individuality from such an earlier point in their life. There is no time allowed for self-expression and self-discovery in Amy Chua's model of parenting (it is a model of parenting, despite her protests that it's simply her memoirs. you dont state such vehement views so confidently and then just claim it's your sense of humor kicking in. you dont brag how successful your kids are because of your draconian parenting, and then say "haha...just kiddding! i'm not actually like that!".)
It's pathetic how quickly Amy Chua dismisses her views in the article as mere 'tongue-in-cheek' asian humor when genuinely questioned about her advocation of abusive parenting practices. That article was a clear call to arms against western parenting. "I wont back down" she states. It looks like she backed down the first moment she gets called out on public tv for her abusive parenting. What a joke. To anyone that tries to argue that we're misunderstanding her taiwanese-english humor, the joke is on you. Do you seriously think a law professor at Yale doesn't possess an uncanny mastery of language and logic? what do you think Law is, but a clever manipulation of language to argue one's point.
I thought that TWSJ was above pandering to people's interests in scandalous tabloid-trash articles, but apparently their hunger for higher ratings got the best of them. It looks like they published her article to take advantage of america's interest in the the heated debate over china's economic interests in the USA, and it worked. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001001 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001001
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 09:55:17 GMT
James Moro wrote ""Mr Cheng",seriously, for someone so successful and genetically superior, you ..." "Mr Cheng",
seriously, for someone so successful and genetically superior, you have an exhorbitant amount of free time on your hands to waste on your prolific comments.
1) If you're such a genetically superior genius as you posit in your responses, then why is that your grammar and syntax is at a 4th grade level? I dont care that english isn't your first language. You have no excuse other than your own lack of education (or genetic ability/poor parenting as you would say).
2) what is your obsession with amy chua's "EEC professor" father? you make it sound like he's the master race. Seriously, get your obsession in check. no one knows who her father is, let alone cares about his fleeting relevance to the original article.
3) get over yourself. did you seriously just claim that you have the answer to the current economic crisis in america? you, you alone? "But, be honest with you, when you have so many talents, this country can NOT take advantage of all of them." Obviously, mastering foreign languages is NOT one of your many talents.
4) are you really advocating eugenics? Frankly, I find your talk of superior genetics to be disturbing. Amy Chua's article was an argument in favor of "nurture" over nature, not the other way around. yet you can't help yourself with your giddy references to some pseudo asian intelligence genetic superiority.
end rant.
Now to the original topic.
Amy Chua's article reads like a manifesto for creating mindless overachievers with absolutely no sense of self or identity. Her children are simply living manifestations of her prejudice and ignorance. Having denied them from an early age of any original thoughts and desires, she has pigeon-holed them into a life of very limited possibilities. Sure, they'll probably be successful by most standards, but will they discover the cure to cancer or succeed in any discipline that actually requires genuine creativity and synthesis? It's unlikely.
Amy Chua's how philosophy on child rearing is a sickeningly disturbing reality that robs children of their individuality and freedom of self-discovery. For all intents and purposes, children raised in this manner are no more than indentured servants to the totalitarian parents. They are guilted, scorned and psychologically manipulated into blindly following the narrow-minded teachings of their parents. By the time their children escape the iron fist education of their parents, it's too late for them embark upon any kind of real self-discovery. Instead, they get married, and have kids of their own so that they can forever perpetuate their parents' teachings because it's the only reality they will ever know.
It's pathetic how quickly Amy Chua dismisses her views in the article as mere 'tongue-in-cheek' asian humor when genuinely questioned about her advocation of abusive parenting practices. That article was a clear call to arms against western parenting. "I wont back down" she states. It looks like she backed down the first moment she gets called out on public tv for her abusive parenting. What a joke. To anyone that tries to argue that we're misunderstanding her taiwanese-english humor, the joke is on you. Do you seriously think a law professor at Yale doesn't possess an uncanny mastery of language and logic? what do you think Law is, but a clever manipulation of language to argue one's point.
I thought that TWSJ was above pandering to people's interests in scandalous tabloid-trash articles, but apparently their hunger for higher ratings got the best of them. It looks like they published her article to take advantage of america's interest in the the heated debate over china's economic interests in the USA, and it worked. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001000 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2001000
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 09:55:12 GMT
James Moro wrote ""Mr Cheng",seriously, for someone so successful and genetically superior, you ..." Great stuff. I believe these days there are more and more Chinese around the world who want to be more like you than Amy Chua. Reaching great height in white collar jobs is good but it cannot be the goal for everybody. Just because one cannot become the next Amy Chua doesn't mean he/she should stop having fun in life. I applaud you for sharing your story. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000995 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000995
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 09:40:01 GMT
Chris Doe wrote "Great stuff. I believe these days there are more and more Chinese around the world ..." She relates herself and her education method to those of a Chinese mother ok?<br />2. China big country that didn't really wowed the world at being brilliant. Hard working, very successful in huge %, but not really leaders, more follower and great executioners.<br />3. i know i know they r the only oppressed<br />4. Hungary small country, bigger contribution of geniuses, ( plenty of political problems)<br />5. She claims what she does is bring out the "smartness: they are the math whizzes<br />6. I say any monkey practicing enough hours an equation can eventually get it<br />7 its limited, unfruitful, dense and breeds ppl with serious social skills <br />even so, i agree with her abt laziness and not raising the standard , and challenging kids to do more , and push them more, and educate and restrict them more. I mentioned that. It's just the huge discrepancy of what i expected from Yale professor, that/s all, if she was any asian woman, her opinion would be her opinion,, I'll prob just have said ;idiot; and that would have been it.<br />Moreso, I can't figure out why WSJ is letting this happen, both her article and us here, you'd think they want traffic just like any ordinary paper lol. You know, when one says I read it in WSJ, until today if anyone told me that I would take it as the word of the law. Worked in Fin, WSJ was the law....but this? Such a controversial title....no way..unless the books look really red.<br />You are taking it too personal, I am just saying, you can't make a point in WSJ by staring by offending 80% of the population of the country that is hosting you and did your family years ago when they first came here. And i am an emigrant. She is not for a moment in " the western parents" team in that article. You would think she should be, she lives here, she is born here, second because she just walked all over her own husband, on top of every white western parent. The article would have had a fighting change without the comparison. She is still conduction a slave drive, but that's a diff point. Just mention what YOU do to insure the success of your children, even mention that you have seem it in the past in your family etc. It is just how is done. Even if she has solid points,they are lost to ppl, because all that is seem is this unbelievable snobbish attitude, like a baby snake you took pity on when it was small, and now turns around and bites you. She just make one NOT look up to her, she is just too poisonous. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000986 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000986
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 09:24:40 GMT
liana wright wrote "She relates herself and her education method to those of a Chinese mother ok?&..." UP http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000968 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000968
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 08:59:25 GMT
Kevin Chen wrote "UP" that's pretty interesting, I like that controversy stuff. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000967 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000967
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 08:59:06 GMT
Kevin Chen wrote "that's pretty interesting, I like that controversy stuff." Read the article first. She identifies as being a : Chinese mother throughout. What does it matter WHERE she is from, when she evidently idetifies herself with being a chinese mother, What is so hard to get.
It not imp where is she from, obv. she is not considering herself western so should we? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000964 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000964
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 08:56:07 GMT
liana wright wrote "Read the article first. She identifies as being a : Chinese mother throughout. What ..." As appalling as this article is, I am very happy to say that most Chinese parents aren't this strict or psychotic. If I had been raised by this kind of parent, I probably would have run away as soon as I had the means and a viable plan for surviving independently. That is...if I hadn't snapped and seriously injured or killed her first!
Two years ago, I risked everything I had at age 31 to move from the U.S. to the lovely city of Chongqing, China, where I'm happily building my life. (My Chinese name is Gusang Qiao.) The excruciating stress, the high living costs, and the harrowing loneliness of life in America finally made me rebel.
Following my first trip to China in July of 2008, I specifically chose Chongqing because of its friendly people and laid-back culture. Compared to other Chinese residents, the people of Chongqing care more about mental health and balance in life, and less about "status" and "face." And get this: they have more friends!
In my English-teaching profession (at a private language school with teenagers and adults), I often tell my students that if they aren't pursuing a college degree from abroad, they should learn a vocational trade, and learn a foreign language (such as English). This is still considered respectable in Chongqing's local culture.
Needless to say, the "Tiger Mother" wouldn't be happy here!
Why does everyone think they have to be "number one" at everything? And furthermore, does the world really need more white-collar employees? Without virtuous blue-collar workers, there'd be no precious white-collar ones. Try googling "the ant tribe" and read all about the hordes of recent Chinese college graduates (not to mention American ones) who can't find decent jobs.
Anyway, I'm extremely grateful to have a job I love, to enjoy good health and a balanced life, and to relish meaningful friendships -- and all without owning a house or car, nor having a PhD, or being a CEO. I'd never trade any of the wonderful blessings in my life for the ridiculous rubbish Amy Chua thinks I should have. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000963 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000963
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 08:55:23 GMT
Gusang Qiao wrote "As appalling as this article is, I am very happy to say that most Chinese parents ..." Yeah, so we can all forget about her mistreating her children, now that she mention such wholesome all american food like hamburger and fries ( I already feel at peace, I am just a western idiot that believe in Tide commercials getting all the stanis off, and can almost smell the homey food), that should comfort our image of the bad asian witch, and let us just hike it a notch and add the dogs too (what would really complete the picture and set my mind at ease would be if they were labs, yellow labs even the better, the dogs I mean), and some Netflix.
Does this sound like Yale to you? Really? You would think distinction and integrity and having a spine would be more important for someone from Yale that " practice, practice, practice so you can beat the other kids, that the greater purpose in life, just beat the other kids, get ahead. A little league coach can do that, and I bet he can be much more inspiring and show much more leadership than madame Chu. She is not a leader, she is just a little frustrated dictator http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000948 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000948
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 08:45:44 GMT
liana wright wrote "Yeah, so we can all forget about her mistreating her ..." Denying bathroom break or food to a child, anywhere in this world, it's called child abuse regardless of the scope of your actions. She should be interrogated by Social Services.
Why you so hot on defending her attitude is mind boggling, since she herself retracted her words as being a little too much in her response article.
Not to mention that she didn't even have the backbone to own to her own mistakes, but usually that is the known MO isn't it? She blamed it that somebody else gave the name of the article as "asian mother being superior"...I mean you understand ..she wrote the article, but not really, some words were sneaked in there w/o her approval....give me a break, she has the character of dirt road snake....
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000942 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000942
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 08:29:39 GMT
liana wright wrote "Denying bathroom break or food to a child, anywhere in this world, it's called child abuse ..." thanks, tiger mom, for this article. my son, now 50, and i emailed each other about the list at the beginning. how familiar. with a little tweaking, i followed them all in rearing a brilliant, happy, successful husband and father. it was not always easy going against the flow of non-involved parents, who are now writing the wsj in droves trying to justify their lack of effort, self-involved time, and grown children still living at home. you have opened a much neeed discussion. and, yes, as a college english lit teacher, i do understand 'irony' used for emphasis. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000941 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000941
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 08:29:36 GMT
Kay Parsons wrote "thanks, tiger mom, for this article. my son, now 50, and i emailed ..." Sarcasm? What's it sarcastic about?
Why do you have to compare two countries size? Amy Chua has NOTHING to do with China. She's an America born American, isn't she? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000924 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000924
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 08:16:30 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Sarcasm? What's it sarcastic about? Why do you have to compare two ..." You are right, but I didn't compare races, i compared countries. Plus, the political oppression is not something happening to China only.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000923 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000923
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 08:15:33 GMT
liana wright wrote "You are right, but I didn't compare races, i compared countries. Plus, the ..." Incredibly well articulated and easily one of the most insightful posts I've read on here so far. I'd click recommend multiple times if I could. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000919 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000919
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 08:11:05 GMT
chuanlee lai wrote "Incredibly well articulated and easily one of the most insightful posts I've read on ..." What else do you want her to say? If she says the wrong thing she might not be allowed to use the bathroom again. If you guys think a it is normal for a parent to take proud saying sh didn't allow her own kid to the bathroom, then our children leave in very very sad world. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000915 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000915
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 08:06:38 GMT
liana wright wrote "What else do you want her to say? If she says the wrong ..." You are so ridiculous it is almost no fun replying: your blame your own Gov, you been dealing with since ages, and considering your as many as you are , you should have done something about that by now, all Eastern Europe did. You deserve your own Gov mister. You defending the wrong person, she approached the entire article badly. It is not about the point she is trying to make. She can make any point she wants, I read plenty of useless opinions every day from all breeds of idiots, I just expected more from both WSJ and a Yale professor. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000913 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000913
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 08:03:47 GMT
liana wright wrote "You are so ridiculous it is almost no fun replying: your blame your own ..." It's called sarcasm, and its meant to compare the two countries for size. Ok, errata: Chinese Empire, will that give help you better get the point? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000909 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000909
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 07:57:46 GMT
liana wright wrote "It's called sarcasm, and its meant to compare the two countries for size. Ok, errata: ..." Every parent wants their kids to be happy. But there are many different types of happy. There's the fully independent, financially well off, able to support and spend time with his own family type of happy. And there's also the liberal arts degree, struggling musician, homosexual but his family supports his life choices and love him no matter what type of happy. And everything in between.
This Chinese lady might take it a little too far, but I'm sure even you have made your kids unhappy at one point or another, in order to teach them a something that will better their lives in the long run. Perhaps you punished them for stealing or fighting. Perhaps you forced them to eat vegetables they didn't want to eat. Perhaps you said, no TV or video games until homework is finished. If you happened to have done all three of those, it's only because you didn't want them to "define themselves" as happy unhealthy uneducated criminals.
There's no need to be as extreme as this Chinese lady, but the truth is, too many American parents apply far too little pressure. If that is the case, one day, your child will grow up and wish he/she wasn't so mediocre. By then you will be too senile and oblivious to realize that you are partly to blame, and you will die happy, possessing the illusion that you gave your child the best possible chance of truly being happy. You will die content, but in actuality you are an utter failure. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000894 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000894
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 07:45:00 GMT
chuanlee lai wrote "Every parent wants their kids to be happy. But there are many different types of happy. There's the fully ..." She says this: "No outsider can know what our family is really like. They don’t hear us cracking up over each other’s jokes. "They don’t see us eating our hamburgers with fried rice. They don’t know how much fun we have when the six of us — dogs included — squeeze into one bed and argue about what movies to download from Netflix."
OK. So how come we don't know these things? Because her mother did not put them in her book. And why not? If her mom gave a misleading picture of the family who is at fault?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000886 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000886
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 07:40:27 GMT
PAUL JOHNSON wrote "She says this: "No outsider can know what our family is really ..." OPEN KNOWLEDGE - I see now on the Chinese movie download sites, videos of lectures given at IVY schools. In fact, kids have gotten together and transcribed/translated them themselves, and from the download numbers, the lectures are very popular. I think along with Wikipedia, this is a dramatic shift in how many people are able to obtain knowledge. Of course not the interactive type, but still very valuable. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000881 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000881
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 07:35:50 GMT
Robert Dunn wrote "OPEN KNOWLEDGE - I see now on the Chinese movie download sites, videos of ..." If your daughter wasn't doing well in calculus, how would you handle that? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000877 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000877
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 07:32:35 GMT
Robert Dunn wrote "If your daughter wasn't doing well in calculus, how would you handle that?..." Did your son find math "easy" or did you have to help him with homework or explain things to him? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000875 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000875
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 07:30:41 GMT
Robert Dunn wrote "Did your son find math "easy" or did you have to ..." Doesn't matter! the conclusion has been drawn by everyone else! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000844 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000844
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 06:59:54 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Doesn't matter! the conclusion has been drawn by everyone else!" It was reported that Prof. Leon Chua was from Philippines, not Taiwan.
What Nobel Prize Amy Chua could possibly win? Nobel Prize in Laws? Never heard of it.
Why honoring Steve Jobs a Doctor Degree can get Rutgers more Nobel Prize? Did he win one? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000837 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000837
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 06:57:18 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "It was reported that Prof. Leon Chua was from Philippines, not Taiwan. What Nobel Prize ..." Let's read what Amy's daughter has to say about her mother:
http://www.nypost.com/p/entertainment/why_love_my_strict_chinese_mom_uUvfmLcA5eteY0u2KXt7hM http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000832 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000832
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 06:55:05 GMT
Alex Wang wrote "Let's read what Amy's daughter has to say about her mother:..." "Panda Dad" - nice term. We need more pandas ... hence the Chinese gov't are ramping up their conservation efforts to protect the existing population and breed more pandas into the wild. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000809 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000809
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 06:33:13 GMT
Remy Le Beau wrote ""Panda Dad" - nice term. We need more pandas ... hence the ..." one thing that amy chua fails to mention is that traditional chinese parents raise their children with the concept that their accomplishments are targeted towards benefiting the community as a whole. this is one teaching that has been lost for asian americans. traditional asian culture rewards contributing to society as a whole. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000808 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000808
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 06:32:21 GMT
JING CUI wrote "one thing that amy chua fails to mention is that traditional chinese parents raise their ..." well its silly to compare which races have nobel prize winners, it is naive if you don't realize how much politics is involved in determining the outcome of that award. and please consider who gives out that award. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000807 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000807
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 06:30:28 GMT
JING CUI wrote "well its silly to compare which races have nobel prize winners, it is ..." Hahaha, Mr Cheng, I like your style! persuasive with humor and fact. Stories are very interesting too.
Please continue! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000798 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000798
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 06:25:56 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Hahaha, Mr Cheng, I like your style! persuasive with humor and fact. ..." Doesn't matter, Mr. Mackay.
They are forever foreigners. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000789 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000789
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 06:16:59 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Doesn't matter, Mr. Mackay. They are forever foreigners." The author is a law Professor at Yale and her article is very shallow. There is absolutely no research. No serious thinking. Using her own words, this is garbage. Why would WSJ publish this immature piece? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000784 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000784
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 06:12:01 GMT
Mariappan Jawaharlal wrote "The author is a law Professor at Yale and her article is very shallow. There is absolutely no research. No ..." Chunyan, your comments are always well said. Thank you for taking the time to clarify and insight. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000781 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000781
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 06:09:56 GMT
Remy Le Beau wrote "Chunyan, your comments are always well said. Thank you for taking the time to ..." Elitism is a funny thing in education... And so is complete and utter ignorance.
I've had first hand experience teaching Asian and Western children from kindergarten to high school and grew up in a household with a mother who is a teacher and principal. I am Canadian, went to public school like everyone else, put myself through university and achieved academic honours in finance, ended up in investment banking and left to travel in Asia where I taught english and diving before moving back into finance in SIngapore. We aren't that different in some respects but in others, vastly.
As an example... I have been horrified at the treatment children receive in the Hong Kong public system and also at their level of acumen. I can say in one particular instance I taught a class of grade 2 & 3 students for almost 8 months, all of which were there to receive 'extra' help because their parents made them feel ashamed of themselves and inadequate, and were more worried about them getting ahead than their own mental well-being. Low and behold, with a little care and encouragement, I saw every single kid in that class completely come out of their shell in the time I spent with them, as a result of applying 'modern' not 'western' teaching practices. And I can say without question that every 'gui loh' teacher I've met in Asia would stand right beside me.
You may not be aware of this but in Hong Kong the public education system is divided into 3 tiers. Children and their parents are interviewed prior to the first grade in order to place the child according to ability level. Remember this is the public system and it is well noted that if a child does not enter at level 1 or 2, their chances of attending even a local university are very slim. They are 7 years old when this happens... I had to sit and provide interview tips and techniques to manic-paranoid parents and their petrified 7 year olds.
They're not allowed to be children. And a kid is a kid is a kid. They all learn and perceive things the same way regardless of culture. And we've moved forward in the west from this ideal of 'beat your kids into it'. No culture is perfect at it by any means, but at the very least we are 'open minded' and have an educational system that is self critical and recognizes the students' best interest and talents. Sorry we aren't all left brained. If the asian system of parenting and education is so exceptional, why is that just about every asian parent I've met with the means is fighting to send their children overseas for university. I've also consulted in corporate recruiting and the vast majority of western and Asian financial institutions, including the CICC's, Goldmans' and JP Morgans' of the world placed a Western degree from an Asian candidate as priority one.
From a purely academic perspective, virtually every study ever done on the effect of negative re-enforcement in teaching, particularly children, has shown just how ineffective it is relative to well placed and consistent positive reinforcement. What I experienced were children that were being left behind because they were forced into a rigid and draconian educational system that produces people with low self esteem and an inability to cope with uncertainty. The mass predilection for acceptance in the group through status and wealth, which are unobtainable by the vast majority vs. the development of relationships based on altruism and trust, case in point.
Apologies for the rant and if I've offended anyone, that's not my intention. But it makes so angry to see a supposed diplomat of higher education, one that is supposed to represent the equality of the strongest institutions in the world, justify that behavior and treatment of children. I've had my own students come into class with their eyes full of tears at 7 years old and ask me if I thought they were 'garbage'. Those parents should be ashamed of themselves.
Look yourself in the mirror Amy and the reflection of arrogance and elitism should be staring you in the face.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000779 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000779
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 06:08:54 GMT
Grant Stirton wrote "Elitism is a funny thing in education... And so is complete and utter ignorance. I've had ..." "There is a small country in Eastern Europe called Hungary, probably the size of one of your rice fields, that won more Nobel Prizes than an entire Chinese continent."
entire Chinese continent? ---------- Are Amy Chua and her kids Americans? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000778 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000778
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 06:08:03 GMT
John Mackay wrote ""There is a small country in Eastern Europe called Hungary, probably the size of one of ..." The author is a law Professor at Yale and her article is very shallow. There is absolutely no research. No serious thinking. Using her own words, this is garbage. Why would WSJ publish this? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000776 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000776
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 06:07:31 GMT
Mariappan Jawaharlal wrote "The author is a law Professor at Yale and her article is very shallow. There is absolutely no research. No ..." Pls read the book and then reevaluate your comment. I'm sure you'll change your mind about the author. And yes, she does speak Mandarin. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000774 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000774
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 06:07:16 GMT
Remy Le Beau wrote "Pls read the book and then reevaluate your comment. I'm sure you'll change ..." The author is a law Professor at Yale and her article is very shallow. There is absolutely no research. No serious thinking. Using her own words, this is garbage. Why would WSJ publish this? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000773 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000773
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 06:06:52 GMT
Mariappan Jawaharlal wrote "The author is a law Professor at Yale and her article is very shallow. There is absolutely no research. No ..." What a big disappointment that WSJ, would even publish such an article. Shame on you, whoever permitted her article to be published, for dragging what was once a respectable and trustful paper into subject matters that are as racist and undocumented.
Setting aside the strange aroma of child abuse going on in that house hold, her attitude is outrageously offensive. Which that goes to show that not all that glitters is gold, and not that is a Yale professor is neither smart nor tactful.
Dear madame, before opening your obviously unattended mouth, look into how many Noble Prizes were ever won by the white western man, and how many did you Chinese won. Please show me one quality other than repetition you are really good at? Beside writing offensive articles. There is a small country in Eastern Europe called Hungary, probably the size of one of your rice fields, that won more Nobel Prizes than an entire Chinese continent. I understand your pain, that is what usually happens with people that are too busy doing repetitions and not thinking ahead brilliant ideas, they just get better at what other people before then invented.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000755 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000755
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 05:51:41 GMT
liana wright wrote "What a big disappointment that WSJ, would even publish such an article. Shame on you, ..." Re-read Kironyo Kironyo's last sentence. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000743 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000743
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 05:46:05 GMT
Remy Le Beau wrote "Re-read Kironyo Kironyo's last sentence." Western parents raise their children to live in and promote free and open societies. What have you done for the world tiger moms? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000740 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000740
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 05:44:23 GMT
Hamilton Mitchell wrote "Western parents raise their children to live in and promote free and open societies. What ..." Couple of things...actually yes what Ms. Chua did likely matters. Do you really think if she did nothing out of the norms for Western folk people would be calling her "extreme" or "too strict". That strains credibility.
Also the idea that the WSJ was entirely independent in titling the piece also strains credibility. As someone who as written for magazines before I far more often than not get to see the article before it is printed, I also collaborate on the title. I have a hard time believing that someone who is such a control freak like Ms. Chua blindly let the WSJ title it with no oversight at all. In fact when you read Ms. Chua's words I can find no place where she said: "I had no idea they were going to call it that" which seems to be the implication when people say that the only thing controversial here is the title.
What seems a bit more likely is that Ms Chua was complicit with the title because she didn't see anything wrong with it at the time. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000691 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000691
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 05:14:02 GMT
Kim Eagles wrote "Couple of things...actually yes what Ms. Chua did likely matters. ..." Just relax. Kids are not stupid, they're just learning to be smart. China's catching up and see what they're doing? They're teaching their students not to get burried in books, so it's hard to say who's beating who.
I also applaude Amy Chua for telling it like it is, but there's no need to give us all the gory details. I'm worried some of us may start copying her extreme measures and forget the real story she's trying to convey. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000684 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000684
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 05:11:32 GMT
Chris Doe wrote "Just relax. Kids are not stupid, they're just learning to be smart. China's catching ..." People these days are just to uptight about how society and the people in it should be perfect. What is the point really? Always trying to be number 1 in everything doesn't make someone happy it makes there life hell. The stress of always trying to be best is not worth it for a lot of people. My question is, are the kids really working hard for themselves or for their parents? Why are the children born with such a huge debt to their parents in the first place?What's the point in living if you can't enjoy it. Life should be full of the things you want to do and the things that make you happy. Plus! weather we like it or not trying to be perfect only makes people not like you. It makes people feel as if they are being shown up even if that really was not the intent. We need to learn to be happy with ourselves and...our children!!!!! Just because someone doesn't want to be perfect number one doesn't mean they are not a successful person. It's all about how you define success. What would you choose....to be happy with your life and define yourself or BE defined by how well you achieve tasks above others in your life? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000680 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000680
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 05:08:56 GMT
Rose Anne wrote "People these days are just to uptight about how society and the people in it should be perfect. ..." You have only one child in the family and that's your future and saving and means to live in the old age. If your child don't do good then your are basically screwed. That's it for being "strong Chinese" parents. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000663 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000663
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 04:55:16 GMT
Raza Rehman wrote "You have only one child in the family and that's your future and saving and means to ..." Well said and enough said, Chunyan! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000661 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000661
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 04:54:34 GMT
Remy Le Beau wrote "Well said and enough said, Chunyan!" I realize you're making an analogy. Actually the advantages of RISC performance was based on a number of assumptions which we don't necessarily hold to today. For example the idea that you lower the transistor count to increase clock speed was made at a time where fabrication technology was moving slower and chip sales were smaller. The things RISC added to CPU architecture which people don't always realize were things like a large register file and super-scalar architecture (including or eliminating logic for handling branching code). When CISC CPUs added these features (which are arguably non-RISC in the pure sense) they performed as well or better than their RISC counterparts.
In fact increasing instruction complexity can easily increase performance one only has to look at how Intel has only increased the number of instructions on their CPU's over the years. Most recently the addition of AES specific instruction has a huge benefit to encryption beating out similar (and mildly better chips at something like a 10:1). But we always knew that dedicated silicon worked faster than mildly faster general purpose silicon for a number of tasks - deep crack taught us that. One point I will give in favor of "RISC-like" architectures are in very specific tasks which have a high degree of parallelism. Such as the designs used in GPU computing which are "RISC-like" in the sense that their per-core transistor count is small but a lot of this isn't just due to lower instruction count but also reductions in control logic like interlocks and memory protection. However these tasks have all the same limitations in increasing performance as governed by Ahmdal's law.
That said the idea of someone being able to avoid mistakes on time consuming tasks can be very valuable. However even there it's not always optimal because in real life development you don't always have complete specifications. Either because functional specs are fiction or because users don't really know what they want (or both) which is one of the reasons iterative development has become so popular (XP, scrum and other agile methods). http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000657 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000657
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 04:52:05 GMT
Kim Eagles wrote "I realize you're making an analogy. Actually the advantages of RISC performance was based on a ..." Finally, somebody said it. We are a bunch of sissies, and whiners. We are too soft on our kids and ourselves.
It is all about feeling good, having fun, and hurting nobodies feelings. The self esteem doctrine in the US failed miserably and I am glad somebody said it. Our kids are stupid, and lazy. We must have an alternative, and deal with our failures. If we want our country to have any future we must change. We oursleves need to suck it in and cope, and teach our children do the same. It is tough and competitive out there. And we are not ready to compete with Chinese. Our people need to learn how to deal with failure, and what it takes to overcome failure. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000654 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000654
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 04:49:56 GMT
sergej popov wrote "Finally, somebody said it. We are a bunch of sissies, and whiners. We are too soft on ..." Well, that depends on what your definition of "better" is. Does it include physical activities, extracurricular activities, and more life experiences than others? If so, I'd say Chinese migrants' kids are no better than others. And there's nothing wrong with being good at these things and not so good academically, they're usually the qualities a company look for when hiring someone. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000635 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000635
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 04:43:24 GMT
Chris Doe wrote "Well, that depends on what your definition of "better" is. Does it include physical ..." "such stereotypically successful kids"
I think I found your problem. I'd hate to be on my deathbed reflecting on a life of servitude toward the goal of being "stereotypically successful". This article reads like a Chinese propaganda piece, with imposed ideas of objectively correct values intertwined with self-praise at achieving them.
Still, I do respect the goal of working against entropy to achieve great things. And no, this doesn't necessarily mean being yet another skilled drone on a piano or violin (unless you love these things); it could be anything you want to achieve that requires a lot of effort.
"Tiger moms" come across (even if wrongly) as heartless witches who value the wrong things in life, but I guess that's a matter of perspective. I agree with the point that, despite cultural differences, Chinese parents care about their children just as American parents. While I may think it's horrible that a Chinese mom doesn't show love unconditionally, they might think I'm just as horrible for hardly ever visiting my own parents. There are many examples like this.
In any case, you need to take a step back and examine what is truly important in life and work from there, instead of just blindly following tradition for tradition's sake. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000607 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000607
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 04:32:35 GMT
Mike Vargas wrote ""such stereotypically successful kids"I think I found your problem. ..." "such stereotypically successful kids"
I think I found your problem. I'd hate to be on my deathbed reflecting on a life of servitude toward the goal of being "stereotypically successful". This article reads like a Chinese propaganda piece, with imposed ideas of objectively correct values intertwined with self-praise at achieving them.
Still, I do respect the goal of working against entropy to achieve great things. And no, this doesn't necessarily mean being yet another skilled drone on a piano or violin (unless you love these things); it could be anything you want to achieve that requires a lot of effort.
"Tiger moms" come across (even if wrongly) as heartless witches who value the wrong things in life, but I guess that's a matter of perspective. I agree with the point that, despite cultural differences, Chinese parents care about their children just as much as American parents. While I may think it's horrible that a Chinese mom doesn't show love unconditionally, they might think I'm just as horrible for hardly ever visiting my own parents. There are many examples like this.
In any case, you need to take a step back and examine what is truly important in life and work from there, instead of just blindly following tradition for tradition's sake. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000605 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000605
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 04:32:29 GMT
Mike Vargas wrote ""such stereotypically successful kids"I think I found your problem. ..." If I was raised like her kids, I'd need a dominatrix to keep up my motivation as an adult. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000578 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000578
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 04:22:53 GMT
Texas Joe wrote "If I was raised like her kids, I'd need a dominatrix to keep up ..." It was going to be #2, but then you clicked the link... http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000557 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000557
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 04:15:57 GMT
Weijia Wu wrote "It was going to be #2, but then you clicked the link..." Um Amy, have you checked the suicide rates in China vs. America? You may want to think this article over one more time and revamp. I do believe we should push our children harder than the "norm", but insulting their intelligence. Children in China may be "smarter", but what do they do with that "top of the class" knowledge and skill? Chinese suicide rates have "skyrocketted" according to an article I read, in the past few years. When we base our childrens success solely upon their desire, upon their skill, practice, devotion. When we tell them it's their fault they were not number one, when there is no other option but to be number "1", then we are setting them up to feel as though their life is worthless if they are not number one. Amy, I have news for you. You can be the best out there, but there is always someone better. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000508 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000508
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 03:55:20 GMT
Hazel Sanders wrote "Um Amy, have you checked the suicide rates in China vs. America? ..." Um Amy, have you checked the suicide rates in China vs. America? You may want to think this article over one more time and revamp. I do believe we should push our children harder than the "norm", but insulting their intelligence. Children in China may be "smarter", but what do they do with that "top of the class" knowledge and skill? Chinese suicide rates have "skyrocketted" according to an article I read, in the past few years. When we base our childrens success solely upon their desire, upon their skill, practice, devotion. When we tell them it's their fault they were not number one, when there is no other option but to be number "1", then we are setting them up to feel as though their life is worthless if they are not number one. Amy, I have news for you. You can be the best out there, but there is always someone better. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000507 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000507
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 03:55:17 GMT
Hazel Sanders wrote "Um Amy, have you checked the suicide rates in China vs. America? ..." Um Amy, have you checked the suicide rates in China vs. America? You may want to think this article over one more time and revamp. I do believe we should push our children harder than the "norm", but insulting their intelligence. Children in China may be "smarter", but what do they do with that "top of the class" knowledge and skill? Chinese suicide rates have "skyrocketted" according to an article I read, in the past few years. When we base our childrens success solely upon their desire, upon their skill, practice, devotion. When we tell them it's their fault they were not number one, when there is no other option but to be number "1", then we are setting them up to feel as though their life is worthless if they are not number one. Amy, I have news for you. You can be the best out there, but there is always someone better. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000506 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000506
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 03:55:04 GMT
Hazel Sanders wrote "Um Amy, have you checked the suicide rates in China vs. America? ..." One thing I agree on is that American kids (and most parents as well), for lack of a better word, lack discipline. May be it's not lack but much less dose. Largely speaking, American kids who care about themselves excel. Most of the rest don't unless they play sports well. Asian kids who care about themselves obviously excel. Those who are not as much driven fare not bad either because they are not slackers. That is, hard working can compensate to some degree not being as smart (or lucky). What Amy's article says to me is that discipline is important but learning to wok hard is equally important http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000488 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000488
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 03:48:02 GMT
Suenman Yu wrote "One thing I agree on is that American kids (and most parents as well), for lack of a ..." It's true America promotes uniqueness and individualism so Amy Chua's extreme parenting way is deemed to be viewed as evil. But on the other hand, hard working, perseverance and discipline are also needed in many cases. If one has been with Army, one would know how the army train the best combat soldiers (not to say we should do the same to kids but you know what I mean). From this perspective, somehow more ane more people realized that today's American kids are just too self-centered and indulged to blind pride that we offer to them easily. Perseverance and hard working becomes the rarely seen virtue among the kids. From this perspective. I think Mrs. Chua's book did bring some debatable thoughts to our society.
Anyways, no culture or single parenting way is 100% perfect. Learning from others is very important in competition. That's why I appreciate the fact that so many Asians have been constantly learning from the West. We can argue all day why we are still the best. But in the end it's the fact that counts! If you've been to Asia, you could see what is happening. Not saying that everything we are doing is wrong, but the fact is they are on full speed catching up.
Maybe we can still say White Americans are dominating the inventions or entrepreneur pioneering, which I reasonably doubt. But take a look at today's America and next generation Americans, take a close look at our top university campus, what do you see different demographically compared to 20 years ago? Take a close look at the 300 semifinalists of the Intel Science Talent Search competition, the nation’s most prestigious pre-college science contest, how many of them are Asians? Chinese Americans alone takes 1/3 !(http://www.societyforscience.org/STS). The truth is I was stunned when I looked at the picture! This is not a contest based on academics but the combination of knowledge, creativity, imaginativity and how to implement. Are they or most of them are just bunch of robots with low self-esteem and without creativity? Don't fool yourself. And don't forget, most of Asian/Chinese immigrants came to this land after 1980's. So most of these Asian American kids are probably only the second generation. I'm glad these brilliant and intelligent young people are America's young blood.
I am not trying to speak for anybody but I do notice the indisputable fact in recent years. What I wanted to say is that, no matter how you argue, the best way to meet the challenge is to understand why this is happening and be well prepared. The future competition is ruthless.
Of course, if you say, I don't care. I just want my kids to be happy, even being a hobo, then I've got nothing to say.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000487 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000487
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 03:47:22 GMT
John Mackay wrote "It's true America promotes uniqueness and individualism so Amy Chua's extreme parenting ..." Why I love my strict Chinese mom
By SOPHIA CHUA-RUBENFELD
http://www.nypost.com/p/entertainment/why_love_my_strict_chinese_mom_uUvfmLcA5eteY0u2KXt7hM http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000406 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000406
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 03:10:30 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Why I love my strict Chinese mom By SOPHIA CHUA-RUBENFELD ..." I wondered this as well. I understand that it is a necessity with those who truly dedicate themselves to music to be familiar with the widest array of instruments as possible. It is a gross limitation of knowledge and stunting of musical ability to deny all but two instruments. In the musical field she has really sabotaged potential for success with that strategy. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000383 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000383
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 03:01:14 GMT
Patricia Taber wrote "I wondered this as well. I understand that it is a necessity with those who truly dedicate ..." Yeah right!
They need us to repay the 260 billion debt we owe them. That's how much they need us! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000352 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000352
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 02:52:08 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Yeah right! They need us to repay the 260 billion debt we owe ..." The list of what they are and aren't allowed to do really stands out for me. It really makes me wonder what her daughter's real talents are. There is nothing in the article even vaguely suggesting that these children have any interests of their own. As such one can only conclude that they could have made breakthroughs and strides in fields that are much more valuable to society than those their mother has pushed upon them.
The world may be a much darker world because of that aspect of this form of parenting. Creativity and ingenuity and the progress or invention that would have been will not now exist. They may have excelled in areas that their minds were essentially drawn to, but with the limited avenues allowed them, they will never know and the world is most likely the worse for it. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000345 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000345
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 02:50:45 GMT
Patricia Taber wrote "The list of what they are and aren't allowed to do really stands out for me. It really ..." I see most of Asian/Chinese here oppose Amy Chua's extreme way of parenting and her self-claimed representation of Chinese Mothers. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000310 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000310
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 02:42:25 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "I see most of Asian/Chinese here oppose Amy Chua's extreme ..." Thomas, your opinion is insightful. The parenting methods Amy Chua described is indeed an extreme that most of mothers, Chinese or not, would not adopt.
In today's China, actually another issue is more outstanding in parenting which is spoiling. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000260 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000260
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 02:29:18 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Thomas, your opinion is insightful. The parenting methods Amy Chua described is indeed an ..." AMY CHUA IS A PARADIGMATIC ABUSER - DO NOT PAY HER FOR IT!!
Like most abusers, Amy Chua does not think she is an abuser. Type "abusive mentality" into Google, pick any of the results, and compare them to the behavior and intentions described in this article. The deplorable nature of Ms.Chua's actions, coupled with her apparent lack of remorse, so moved me that I have created an online petition urging the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children to speak out against the publication of this book.
To sign the petition, go to: http://www.petitiononline.com/a1ab2b/petition.html
Let Amy Chua know that she cannot profit from child abuse with impunity!!
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000218 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000218
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 02:15:26 GMT
Amber Simpson wrote "AMY CHUA IS A PARADIGMATIC ABUSER - DO NOT PAY HER FOR IT!!Like most abusers, ..." What's wrong with the oboe, or cello? Are they doomed, since the girls will never be allowed to play anything but the violin or piano? I agree with being strict with children, but this article presents a very exagerated view of parenting. I remember I was playing with kids, even if my parents were religious about my homework and extra practice. I was an A student, but I was allowed to play with other kids and I loved it! There must be a balance in everything...not in this poor woman's ways of raising children, unfortunately. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000186 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000186
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 02:04:09 GMT
Myra Nielson wrote "What's wrong with the oboe, or cello? Are they doomed, since the girls will never be allowed to play ..." Yes Diane I understand that not ALL Chinese parents raise their kids the way Amy Chua does. I am a realist and not to stubborn to know she is not speaking for everyone. But for her to speak of Chinese parents in the article the way she does points to the fact that these parenting techniques are VERY widespread. Thanks for your response, this was an interesting yet sad and depressing read. I wish I could talk to her myself. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000065 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment2000065
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 01:23:39 GMT
Ryan Peck wrote "Yes Diane I understand that not ALL Chinese parents raise their kids the way ..." I wonder if this mother has ever read the book Nurtured by Love by Dr. Shinichi Suzuki? He was the founder of the amazing Suzuki approach to teaching excellence in music. Although, he would agree with the idea that our children are capable of much more than we think they are and that Americans greatly undervalue the effects of good, old fashioned repetition he would never approve of her harsh manner or selfish motivation. If our children grow up to have self discipline and excellence in their work through our faithful training and encouragement, the achievement is still their own, and no more than we owe them by choosing to bring them into the world. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999989 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999989
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 01:04:15 GMT
Jleigh Bensaid wrote "I wonder if this mother has ever read the book Nurtured by Love by Dr. ..." I am 60 years old, raised by parents who checked homework everyday, and when we had to memorize they heard it. I was not an A student, but I was a good student. I believe I turned out OK. I wish today that my parents did push me to be better, to complete my eagle scout, to continue with my education, yet with 6 kids it is not always easy.
I’ve raised one son and helped with two step children. I look at what I’ve done as more of a teacher with my son and step children. When it came to doing tough things, it meant he had to get out of the canoe and push us off the rocks, after all he was the lead, and he accepted that responsibility. When he could not make flip turns in the pool, it meant getting in the water and working side by side. When it came to the decision of I've had enough Dad, it was a letting go, the bird was ready to leave the nest, it does not mean he left home, just that he could make decisions on his own. I taught my accountability and responsibility. When it came to sports like soccer, I wanted him to win to be apart of the wining team, yet if he lost, so be it what did I learn did he do all that he could. He learned that in sports as in life, just because you are unbeaten for the season and the "worst team" is your last game, you can be beaten, it's called desire, this is what make leaders.
I don't believe that I raised my son any different than I was raised. I was a parent, a TEACHER, not a chauffeur, nor a planner of minuet details for my son, I wanted him to succeed to realize he could be the best at what he wanted to be, it took a lot of work for both parents to teach my son, he was fortunate, even though mom and dad divorced he was and continues to be an extremely important part of our lives. The fruit of all of this is now he is a parent and I watch him be a parent, a parent who loves, who let’s his children succeed and fail, he is there for them he is a teacher.
When I see today’s kids, I question: no manners, their fat / obese, they have the personalities of doors, their communication skills suck, all they want is everything for them and no one else. Who taught them all of this? Who? Well it must be the schools, they have them all day, and then we take them to gym, cheerleading, play dates, go to computer camp. I guess it is everybody else’s fault, after all I am doing everything we can to make their life easier.
You are teaching your kids to be mediocre, everybody gets a trophy, nobody looses, if the score in midget football is more than 28 points the losing team get’s the ball back until they score. What’s this teach a kid, who came up with these rules.
Today’s kids graduate from nursery school, then kindergarten, then middle school then high school. When I grew up it was eighth grade then high school and college. Nobody made a big deal of it, you we’re just glad it was done.
Maybe the Chinese mother/ doctor is right, but as I have learned in life, there are many roads to the top of the mountain. They say man has been on earth for a short time, and now al of the sudden in the last 20 to 30 years we have all of the answers and new ways to “deal” with kids, all of the sudden we have it right.
Life is about progress not perfection maybe today’s parents need to slow down and just enjoy their kids, you only get them for awhile, and then there on there own.
Well it looks like America is going to get everything the “more intelligent one’s ” wanted, all kids will be the same, fat dumb and happy. Sometimes the Phd’s really does mean pile higher and deeper.
After all, I thought life was to be the best you could be at what you enjoyed and be grateful for it.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999929 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999929
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 00:43:25 GMT
Michael Smith wrote "I am 60 years old, raised by parents who checked homework ..." As with other comments, too much emphasis is being placed on 'nurture', not enough on 'nature'. Chinese traits come with the package which are reinforced by mothers who themselves are hardwired to act in certain ways. Very delicate topic, I know. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999928 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999928
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 00:43:21 GMT
tom merle wrote "As with other comments, too much emphasis is being placed on 'nurture', not enough on 'nature'. ..." WSJ Editors:
Since Mrs. Murdoch, Wendi Deng Murdoch, was born and raised in China, since WSJ picked the title of Amy Chua's article and since Mr. Murdoch owns WSJ, we would like to hear Mrs. Murdoch's opinion(s) and comments on this article and on parenting in general. Perhaps, she can sheds some lights on this so called "Chinese Parenting".
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999923 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999923
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 00:41:37 GMT
Lili Wu wrote "WSJ Editors:Since Mrs. Murdoch, Wendi Deng Murdoch, was born and raised in ..." Too much emphasis on the title. The piece went viral because of what it said. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999916 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999916
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 00:38:47 GMT
tom merle wrote "Too much emphasis on the title. The piece went viral because of what it said...." The tabloids will certainly be tracking them over the next few years, you can bet. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999911 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999911
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 00:37:36 GMT
tom merle wrote "The tabloids will certainly be tracking them over the next few years, you can ..." Very astute observations. But perhaps the drive to mastery combined with subjugation is a trait that has developed over many centuries as a response to the institutional/societal dynamics of the Chinese society. After all many Chinese Americans who commented in this thread echo Ms. Chua's commentary. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999896 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999896
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 00:32:38 GMT
tom merle wrote "Very astute observations. But perhaps the drive to mastery combined with subjugation is a trait that has ..." Firmer, yes, abusive, no. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999882 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999882
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 00:28:16 GMT
tom merle wrote "Firmer, yes, abusive, no." This is unbelievable. I cannot believe a mother could do such a thing to her children. A mother should be loving, caring, and understandable to a child's wants and needs; she should not treat her children as slaves. This 'Tiger Mom' is not a mother; she is a dictator to her poor children. I am a 17-year old, Italian high-school student. Both my mother and father are immigrants from Italy and support me in everything I do. They are there for me and appreciate what I do in my life. My parents are not lazy, and neither am I. I am a hard-worker and so are my parents, but not to this extreme. They both are incredible parents, no matter what this crazy psychopath says. I do not need a maniac of a mother controlling my life and not letting me be myself. My parents do influence me in great ways, but force and hatred is not included. I am a straight-A student, but at least I have a heart. Academics is not what life is all about. One should live life, not be forced into a narrow path of dictatorship. Go to hell, 'Tiger Mom,' and walk in the shoes of your children that live in hell every day. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999880 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999880
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 00:28:01 GMT
Vito Anzalone wrote "This is unbelievable. I cannot believe a mother could do such a thing to her children. A ..." Thanks Michael, it really helps me to find out there are quite a few Asian Americans in the list. Well, just a peek:
Jung, Andrea Avon Products
Jung, Craig D. Interstate Bakeries
Nooyi, Indra K. PepsiCo
Pandit, Vikram S. Citigroup
Ayer, Ramani Hartford Financial Services
Mohapatra, Surya N. Quest Diagnostics
Chao, Albert Westlake Chemical
Fu, Cary T. Benchmark Electronics
Kim, James J. Amkor Technology
Lau, Constance H. Hawaiian Electric Industries
Nagarkatti, Jai P. Sigma-Aldrich
Narayen, Shantanu Adobe Systems
Yabuki, Jeffery W. Fiserv
Murai, Kevin M. Synnex http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999857 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999857
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 00:16:22 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Thanks Michael, it really helps me to find out there are quite a few Asian ..." Looking at this from a different perspective: Mainland China...Since Chinese mothers only have ONE CHANCE at raising a child, they certainly put all they have into it. The spectre of forced abortion, reeducation camps, sweat shops, conscription, and the obsequious neighborhood 'grandma' spying on your every move (and possible extra pregnancy) all combine to motivate a mom to put out what she regards as a superior product for the State. Could these facets of her native land's condition have an impact on how she raises her kids? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999854 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999854
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 00:15:45 GMT
Martha Sparkman wrote "Looking at this from a different perspective: Mainland China...Since Chinese mothers only ..." WSJ forum prohibits comments to go further than 3 levels deep.
I was in San Gabriel recently. I saw plenty of teenagers playing BBall at night, all of them Chinese, none played like Yao Ming, but they played with passion. The shops on W Valley Blvd were full of Chinese customers of all ages.
What I'm trying to say is, do not think of strict upbringing as a Chinese thing, it can be American too, the same goes for not-so-strict upbringing. Growing up as a Chinese in the West, I never needed my parents' constant pressure to achieve well academically and I wasn't the one either.
I, for one, will not try to defend Amy Chua's method because I believe it's extreme. I also do not believe her method would necessarily produce adults with better work ethics either, it's just a myth. The same goes for the opposite i.e. Chinese migrants kids tend to become robots. We all grow up to realize we have to push ourselves to work harder, to socialize better and to educate our children better. These things cannot be taught, they can only be learnt through life experience.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999849 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999849
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 00:12:40 GMT
Chris Doe wrote "WSJ forum prohibits comments to go further than 3 levels deep...." "I have yet to meet anyone in any kind of leadership position who doesn't exhibit these traits.
However, if your goal is to be a successful "worker bee" type of deal then more power to you.".
Michael, our world is diverse, we need leaders as well as worker bees. It's just impossible everybody becomes leaders. And also there are a lot of outstanding industrial leaders in Asia. Most of us are worker bees in America. In the real world, nothing is absolute.
It's true America promotes uniqueness and individualism. But harding working and discipline are also needed in many cases. Have you been ever been in Army? Do you know how they train the best combat soldiers (not to say we should do the same to kids but you know what I mean)? Anyways, no culture or single parenting way is 100% perfect. Learning from others is very important in competition. That's why I appreciate the fact that so many Asians have been constantly learning from the West. You can argue all day why we are still the best. But in the end it's the fact that counts! If you've been to Asia, you could see what is happening. Not saying that everything we are doing is wrong, but the fact is they are on full speed catching up.
Also look at today's America and next generation Americans, maybe you can still say White Americans are dominating the inventions or entrepreneur pioneering, which I reasonably doubt. But take a close look at the next generation, take a close look at out top university campus, what do you see different demographically compared to 20 years ago? Take a close look at the 300 semifinalists of the Intel Science Talent Search competition, the nation’s most prestigious pre-college science contest, how many of them are Asians? Chinese Americans alone takes 1/3 (http://www.societyforscience.org/STS). The truth is I was stunned when I looked at the picture! This is not a contest based on academics but the combination of knowledge, creativity, imaginativity and how to implement. Don't forget, most of Asian/Chinese immigrants came to this land after 1980's. So most of these Asian American kids are probably only the second generation.
I am not trying to speak for anybody but I do notice the indisputable fact in recent years. What I wanted to say is that, no matter how you argue, the best way to meet the challenge is to understand why this is happening and be well prepared.
Of course, if you say, I don't care. I just want my kids to be happy, even being a hobo, then I've got nothing to say. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999846 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999846
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 00:10:44 GMT
John Mackay wrote ""I have yet to meet anyone in any kind of leadership position ..." Haha, you sound like a real winner... I feel sorry for you. Oh, to be so ignorant. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999840 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999840
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 00:04:03 GMT
Yuji Huang wrote "Haha, you sound like a real winner... I feel sorry for you. ..." I'm not sure where you are living at but it's quite common where I live (Los Angeles). It's not the affluence. If anything, the lack of affluence forces the parent to be more demanding because they want their children to take advantage of opportunities that they didn't have.
I'll tell you not watching TV, going to pre-SAT classes, getting tutor, memorizing the dictionary, etc.. works:
One such example is the University of California system. For instance, at the University of California, Berkeley, Asian Americans account for 41% of the undergraduate student body as of 2003, almost four times the proportion of Asian Americans in California (11%). At the University of California, Irvine, the Asian American population is 44% as of 2004. At top high schools, Asian Americans constitute even larger proportions of the student body; over half at Lowell High School, Stuyvesant High School, Brooklyn Technical High School, Hunter College High School and the Bronx High School of Science.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_minority http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999834 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999834
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 00:01:34 GMT
Eric Lam wrote "I'm not sure where you are living at but it's quite common where I live (..." Oh yes, how very fortunate for them, they are saved by the White Man! Oh, how horrible it must be to live in an oppressive regime without any white influences! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999833 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999833
Fri, 21 Jan 2011 00:00:40 GMT
Yuji Huang wrote "Oh yes, how very fortunate for them, they are saved by the White Man! Oh, ..." " It is better to feared than loved, if you cannot be both." Niccolo Machiavelli
And we see how that worked out for those involved. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999821 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999821
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 23:56:19 GMT
Dante Joaquin wrote "" It is better to feared than loved, if you cannot be both." Niccolo ..." Let me just point of a few things: Amy Chua is American-born. In fact, her parents had both been living in the U.S. for some time, and at that point they were both professors at well-known American universities. Chua's father is a pretty famous scientist. Amy Chua is married to a white, Jewish man, and her two children are mixed race. The four have an affluent lifestyle.
This is NOT the typical Chinese-American family. Many typical Chinese-American families are not third-generation mixed race families with a mother who is a former Cleary Gottlieb attorney who was the child of a famous scientist. Instead, many "typical" Chinese-American families are much newer to the cultural landscape here, and they often struggle with financial pressure, language barriers, and cultural differences.
For this reason, Amy Chua does not represent all Chinese or all Chinese-Americans. As a Chinese-American immigrant raised in the U.S., I knew a lot of Chinese-American kids growing up. I cannot think of a single family -- not ONE -- who raised their children in the kind of environment that Amy Chua describes.
Perhaps we should consider that much of what she is writing, although marketed as a memoir, is meant to be satirical? That it is meant to poke fun at both systems of parenting? I mean, come on, some of the stereotypical stuff she says in here is just plain funny.
As for the real reason why her children are successful, perhaps we can look to affluence rather than culture. Just a thought. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999809 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999809
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 23:49:13 GMT
Yuji Huang wrote "Let me just point of a few things: Amy Chua is American-born. In ..." Agreed. This article is beyond outrageous, especially the title of the article chosen by WSJ.
Ryan, I hope that you understand that not ALL Chinese parents believe or practice what Amy Chua does. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999786 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999786
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 23:37:25 GMT
Diane Chen wrote "Agreed. This article is beyond outrageous, especially the title of the article chosen by WSJ. Ryan, ..." If only there were some country where mothers were as overbearing as China's that has a closer economic similarity to America... Oh, right. Japan. Where teenage sexuality isn't just an obsession, it's a thriving industry.
Ironic that they take pride in forcing their children to practice piano and violin until their fingers bleed while all they're teaching them is that it isn't an outlet for creative expression, it's a line on a resume. Would Jimi Hendrix have become such an icon if his mother had been beating him over the head to be a good guitarist?
The Chinese parenting method is designed to pound children into the cogs that the government needs to jam in its machine. Giving geniuses the leeway to excel has worked for the West for centuries; don't throw away what's made us the dominant cultural force on the planet just because we're low on inspiring visionaries at the moment. Newton, Einstein and Hawking would never have changed our perspectives as much as they did if they had been beaten over the head and told "Because I said so" every time they asked "Why?" http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999785 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999785
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 23:36:49 GMT
Andrew Dodd wrote "If only there were some country where mothers were as overbearing as China's that has a ..." Chris Doe: For some reason, it won't let me reply to your post directly. But anyways, yes, my parents wouldn't let me watch TV, they wouldn't let me join water polo, etc... I had zero social life in high school. It's controversial to non-Asians. It's not really that controversial for Asians. This is quite typical. I grew up in the San Gabriel Valley of Los Angeles. We have probably half a million Asian Americans living here. SGV (or as we commonly call it 626) is probably one of the larger Asian American enclaves in the United States. The difference between the Asian parents is some are more strict than others (mine are off the deep end). Hell, it works: why do you think Asians dominate admission at the UCs (UCLA, UC Berkeley, etc...)? Our parents don't make us learn piano so we don't put it on our college applications. Our parents don't send us to pre-SAT testing for fun. It's all to aggressively challenge us academically and to insure our success. Asian Americans aren't labeled as the model minority because it doesn't work. Sure there are flaws (some of us are bitter about it, even myself), but it does work. I wouldn't trade that success for a happier childhood (translated: more video games). http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999778 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999778
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 23:33:26 GMT
Eric Lam wrote "Chris Doe: For some reason, it won't let me reply to your post ..." You know what my son said after he read the article and her daughters response? "They are brain washed and you have to do it since they were young. it won't work for me if you do it to me now cause it's to late to brain wash me" I didn't raise my son that way. School is easy for him until high school. He used to get As w/o much studying so we had no problem. Now no matter what I did yelling, nagging, threatening he just won't do his home work in time and gets Bs and Cs. I am concerned but not worried. You know, my son happens to be very talented in violin. He won state competition with 1 and 1/2 hrs practicing and most times he practiced Lousily according to my standard and he would skip days as much as he could . It's not a very good situation for me cause my friends all think that I pushed him very hard (Chinese Mom stereotyping). As a Chinese saying "I can't wash myself clean even I jump into the Yellow river". That's why Ms. Chau's book is making a bad situation even worse. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999776 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999776
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 23:32:46 GMT
mandy wu wrote "You know what my son said after he read the article and ..." Sorry, she is right. As I watch my three young adults struggle through life, as well as many of their peers, I often wish that I had been firmer with them. That I had been less accepting of a half-made effort put forth when they were capable of more. Bleeding heart parents get the pleasure of supporting their kids, some into the offspring's 30's, all the while continuing to make excuses as to why "it is so hard for a young person to get started these days". Boloney, we aren't doing them any favors. Her daughters KNOW that when things get tough, they have what it takes to get through. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999769 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999769
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 23:31:02 GMT
Pam McDonald wrote "Sorry, she is right. As I watch my three young adults struggle ..." Excuse me.
I'm Chinese.
I was born in the US, but I still find your comment highly offensive. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999754 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999754
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 23:25:27 GMT
Alice Lee wrote "Excuse me.I'm Chinese.I was born in the US, but I still find ..." Haha, nice.
Thanks, really.
It's really something to hear from a stranger. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999750 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999750
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 23:24:34 GMT
Alice Lee wrote "Haha, nice. Thanks, really. It's really something to hear from a stranger." So how does the "superiority" of Chinese mothers reflect in China? Sure Chinese children succeed in all of their grade school classes, but once they leave for college and eventually find professions, the work ethic their mothers forced on them is extinguished. This is not the rule in any way, but many students in China with Chinese mothers practice plagiarism and barely study in college. Even as professionals many Chinese continue this practice. I think this article is wrong to assume having a Chinese mother is the sole reason for the success of the people the article is discussing. There are thousands of other factors that may arise for someone living in the US.
Secondly, academics in no way decides superiority. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999746 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999746
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 23:23:29 GMT
Thomas Hooker wrote "So how does the "superiority" of Chinese mothers reflect in China? Sure ..." Comical. "successful" is subjective. If generating minions of drone employees is what you want, follow this model.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999730 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999730
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 23:19:14 GMT
Tim Jefferson wrote "Comical. "successful" is subjective. If generating minions of drone employees is what you ..." Yeah, for sure. Even when I'm done with school and at work, I grasp things a lot lot faster than my friends.
I do get where you're coming from since I was there. I think once you go off to college, you'll have A BLAST. I made up all my lost social time in high school by being a social butterfly (or some people say party animal) starting in college. And you're able to get away with socializing/partying because you're already ahead of you peers (and they're probably trying to catch up). And you're also able to fund your socializing/partying because you're probably making pretty decent money doing some internship in college.
Good luck, keep your head up! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999702 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999702
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 23:13:14 GMT
Eric Lam wrote "Yeah, for sure. Even when I'm done with school and at work, I grasp ..." But Amy Chua and her kids are Americans.
You mean screw them too? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999693 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999693
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 23:11:16 GMT
John Mackay wrote "But Amy Chua and her kids are Americans. You mean screw them too?..." When you say your parents are like that, I hope you're not saying you've hardly ever watched TV, never chose an extracurricular activity for yourself, having been threatened to have your Teddy burnt, birthday cards rejected, called garbage in front of a table full of guests, appear in a controversial book about your upbringing and then be written in an even more controversial piece in WSJ and become the talk of the town?
I think we all have something in common with Amy Chua and her kids, but I wouldn't go as far as saying this is typical among Chinese migrants in the western societies. At least I hope I'm not the only one observing the trend has been changing for a long time. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999692 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999692
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 23:10:35 GMT
Chris Doe wrote "When you say your parents are like that, I hope you're not saying ..." Ms. Chua, I feel compelled to point out that while you may feel this type of parenting approach is good for your children/others children, and that it will not cause long term psychological damage or hurt their self esteem, there is striking evidence to the contrary. I urge you to read the following article or any of the others out there regarding this tragedy....http://www.kmbc.com/r/4883301/detail.html In summary, a 16 year old girl named Esmie Tseng, of Overland Park, Kansas stabbed her Chinese mother to death in August 2005. Her friends said that her Mother raised her with the kind of parenting style that you subscribe to: demanding perfection, hours of practicing, only straight A's allowed, all work - no fun. Esme apparently had enough. I'm certainly not saying what this young woman did was justified, or that her Mother deserved to die, but it should point out to you that the kind of parenting you recommend certainly isn't foolproof, and doesn't come without a price. In light of this tragedy (I knew the girl and her family) I certainly don't think this kind of parenting makes you superior. After all, what's all the success and straight A's in the world worth if in the end you ruin your life and end someone else's? Esme I suppose would tell you it wasn't worth it....but then maybe you'd just tell her she was garbage/pathetic and needed to suck it up. Either way, I hope never know this kind of tragedy and you're not as unlucky of a Mother as she was for her choices in child rearing. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999689 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999689
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 23:10:23 GMT
Stephannie Froehlich wrote "Ms. Chua, I feel compelled to point out that while you may ..." This article is beyond outrageous. For Chinese parents to believe that their children "owe them everything" is simply ridiculous. I don't understand how these parents can possibly think they're doing the right thing by not allowing their kids to participate in activities they express interest in. It simply does not make sense. Yes, these kids that grew up being consistenly forced to do things by their "Tiger Mothers" may get excellent grades and may make very good money as adults, sure, but they have very few friends due to terrible social skills. Perfecting that piano piece seems great and makes the parents look like good parents, but the child is crying and stressed beyond belief on the inside. After reading this, I am so very happy to have grown up with so-called "Western Parents" leading the way. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999655 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999655
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 23:01:39 GMT
Ryan Peck wrote "This article is beyond outrageous. For Chinese parents to believe that their children "owe them ..." This article is still Number 1 in popularity on WSJ? Get over it people. Screw the Chinese. You have nothing to worry about. They need us more than we need them. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999640 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999640
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 22:58:10 GMT
Joel Lehman wrote "This article is still Number 1 in popularity on WSJ? Get over it people. Screw the ..." If you research a little more about Amy Chua, you'd find out that this article was taken out of context from her memoir. She's not racist, nor is she small-minded, nor is she the psychotic mother everyone makes her out to be. The book was Ms. Chua detailing the experience of raising her children, and the struggles she endured when making choices in parenting her two daughters. She raised her kids with most of the values of "Chinese parenting," yes, but if you'd take some time to actually read the book, you'd see that she's not a fanatical as the WSJ makes her out to be. In fact, the WSJ got this article by taking snippets and excerpts from her memoir and compiling them into this controversial, seemingly narrow-minded piece, without allowing Ms. Chua herself to make many changes. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999639 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999639
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 22:58:07 GMT
Ariana Yang wrote "If you research a little more about Amy Chua, you'd find out that this ..." I hope so.
But I'm kinda already seeing that in school, because I sometimes don't have to try as hard to get that A, you know? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999629 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999629
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 22:55:02 GMT
Alice Lee wrote "I hope so. But I'm kinda already seeing that in school, because I ..." Not at all!
I am anxious to please, certainly, but to give them face? No.
I don't know why I am, though...
Perhaps I just want that "ego-inflating" praise. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999620 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999620
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 22:53:53 GMT
Alice Lee wrote "Not at all! I am anxious to please, certainly, but to give them face? No.I ..." I don't think anyone on this board is racist or has any kind of grudge against the way Asians raise their kids. We all knew uptight parents and pleasant parents of all stripes. We also knew that kids raised by uptight parents were miserable and couldn't wait to rebel in some way or another.
I think what struck a chord was the fact that this country was founded on individuality, risk taking and a free spirit that is considered dangerous in many parts of the world. Many have died for it and many recognize that sacrifice and see the "tyranny" in being raised in a home like Mrs. Chua's home.
To me, and possibly many others, this seems like putting your kids behind the 8 ball socially by not allowing interactions that all the kids I knew participated in. I know for me, I still talk to and do business with adults I have known since grade school. We're tight and accepting of others as long as you're not socially inept.
I have yet to meet anyone in any kind of leadership position who doesn't exhibit these traits.
However, if your goal is to be a successful "worker bee" type of deal then more power to you.
I'm not saying this woman doesn't have right to raise her kids as she seems fit but, to not allow her girls to experience a well rounded teenage experience both good and bad, seems sad to me. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999611 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999611
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 22:50:28 GMT
Michael Choate wrote "I don't think anyone on this board is racist or has any kind of grudge ..." Alice are you anxious to please because of filial piety? Do you worry about giving your parents face? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999606 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999606
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 22:49:33 GMT
Gary Sweeten wrote "Alice are you anxious to please because of filial piety? Do you worry ..." Not to mention many parents left China for better opportunities and they want to make sure their kids take advantage of the opportunities. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999605 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999605
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 22:49:20 GMT
Eric Lam wrote "Not to mention many parents left China for better opportunities and they want to make sure their ..." My work in Asia was not on the mainland. However, I saw many of the same types of obsessive parenting habits from mothers. Maybe they come from being in a very populated nation but India is quite different in parenting but almost as crowded. The school system and the hiring systems also have a big part to play. But Dr. Chua in not from China. She was born and reared in the USA by parents from the Philippines. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999601 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999601
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 22:48:16 GMT
Gary Sweeten wrote "My work in Asia was not on the mainland. However, I saw many of the same types of ..." My parents are like that. I'm 27 I think your profile says you're still in high school. I think it's something you will understand/appreciate more in your mid-20s. When you get older and look at your peers and realize you are ahead of them, then you realize why your parents pushed you so hard.
Not saying it's really right rather you have a better understanding of them. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999597 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999597
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 22:47:24 GMT
Eric Lam wrote "My parents are like that. I'm 27 I think your profile says ..." Brianna,
Your statement of
"Also, such extreme measures can lead to a breaking point and take a grave toll on a child, and situations like this certainly bring to mind campus shooters (an alarmingly high number of whom are Asian)"
is Wrong. Please list factual information here to prove that "an alarmingly high number of whom are Asian".
Also, don't be so sure that Amy's children will never be the CEO or President of a Fortune 500 company. Nobody is so sure about the future. Making these kind of statements looks foolish and childish.
If you have any good/positive parent techniques, I would like to hear them. I personally disagree with Amy Chua's parenting style wholeheartedly. However, there is no need to degrade her children or Asians as a whole. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999586 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999586
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 22:45:00 GMT
Diane Chen wrote "Brianna,Your statement of "Also, such extreme measures can lead to a breaking ..." Maybe I wasn't exactly clear in my question. By other "tiger cubs," I didn't mean the ones already posting on here lamenting about how their experiences with Asian parenting didn't turn out well. I meant those "tiger cubs" who actually support the Asian parenting style they were raised under.
Granted, both types of "tiger cubs" will have different opinions on this, but I think it's important for people to see that some of these "poor Asian children with psycho mothers" are actually grateful for their Nazi Asian parents. I know I am. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999584 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999584
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 22:44:50 GMT
Ariana Yang wrote "Maybe I wasn't exactly clear in my question. By other "tiger ..." Yeah because telling someone they can't pee until they play a piece is the same as reducing privledges. Chua said she would smash things. She threw back unsatisfactory birthday cards. Screaming because someone brought home a 'B'. Chua acted like an infant herself - "waaa you didn't do what I want. I'll break and smash." Riiiiight. A rational reduction in privledge to modulate behavior is hardly comprable and certianly not worse. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999568 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999568
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 22:41:22 GMT
Abslom Daak wrote "Yeah because telling someone they can't pee until they play a piece is the same as ..." Alan, I mention the same thing. Dr. Chua is not Chinese she is an American whose parents are from the Philippines. Being Chinese would mean she was from China. It would be the same if I wrote a book entitled "An Irish Tiger Father" even though I have never been to Ireland and my great, great, great grandparents came over a long time ago. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999566 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999566
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 22:40:36 GMT
Gary Sweeten wrote "Alan, I mention the same thing. Dr. Chua is not Chinese she is an American ..." As a product of that type of parenting, I think it's worth the sacrifice for success. If anything, it's the ultimate sacrifice because my parents risked our relationship to see me succeed. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999550 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999550
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 22:35:58 GMT
Eric Lam wrote "As a product of that type of parenting, I think it's worth the sacrifice for success. If anything, it's the ultimate ..." I actually think the fact that so many Asian students come to American universities to study is the very thing we should pay respect and applause to. Just look at this discussion thread, how many Asian/Chinese people (American or non-American) can argue with excellent English, right logic and straight facts! How many of us can do the same thing on Chinese, Japanese or Korean BBS? This fact alone speaks out loud for the truth! I think this is something serious and challenging, not something we should mock them about.
Behind all this fact reflect a very important issue, it's called attitute. It doesn't matter how much one is left behind, as long as you are determined to learn with a right attitute, in the end you will definitely be able to catch up or even surpass! They may be now working in a call center for us, but who knows after another ten or twenty years?
I just came back from a trip in Asia. I have seen a lot more Westerners working in Shanghai than 5 years ago. Many of them are working for Chinese companies. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999521 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999521
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 22:29:40 GMT
John Mackay wrote "I actually think the fact that so many Asian students come to American ..." http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2009/ceos/
Maybe this will help. Seriously. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999513 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999513
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 22:27:23 GMT
Michael Choate wrote "http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2009/ceos/Maybe this will help. Seriously." In my opinion, the differences in parenting have less to do with religious and philosophical differences and more to do with situational differences. When you live in a country of 1 billion people, it takes a LOT more to succeed than when you live in a country of 300 mil. In the US you can enjoy an average middle class life if you get average grades and graduate from college. In India (and I assume in China) average grades get you no where. A classic example in India is the CA exam (CPA equivalent). The national pass rate for this exam in India has consistently been less than 5%. In the US the pass rate is something like 30-40%. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999505 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999505
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 22:26:35 GMT
Arzan Raimalwala wrote "In my opinion, the differences in parenting have less to do with religious and philosophical differences and ..." I, being a "victim" of this type of parenting, have no idea what it's like to live in a Western household. My mother is definitely not as strict as Dr. Chua, but I've been playing piano since I was 4. I get straight As. I don't date. I don't go to parties, I don't even go out with friends much. But the thing is, even though sometimes I might want this freedom, I still follow her every command. I still love her.
BUT - a big part of my doing well in school is for ME. I do not know if it's her that's motivating me to do well, or if it's myself. I have high expectations for myself. I need As, or else I'd jump off a cliff or something. Because I understand how important a good education is for my future. But I didn't just get that out of nothing - something spurred me into thinking that, someone taught me the stuff. That's right, my mother.
Sometimes I don't want to practice piano.
Sometimes I don't feel like doing homework.
Sometimes I just want to run away from it all.
But do I? NO. And that's who my mother and my dad made me, that's who I've become, because I've learned what's best and I know that I must achieve it for my own happiness, if not only for theirs.
I cannot say that she gives me absolutely no creative freedom, because she does. Just not as much. I don't think she worries about my self-esteem. So, in some ways, I agree with Dr. Chua. But completely trapping them into manufactured little robots? That's just wrong. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999504 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999504
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 22:26:33 GMT
Alice Lee wrote "I, being a "victim" of this type of parenting, have no idea what it's like to ..." My question is, do you know if Amy Chua's daughters loved her or still love her? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999485 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999485
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 22:21:09 GMT
John Mackay wrote "My question is, do you know if Amy Chua's daughters loved her or ..." maybe a president or CEO of a Fortune 500 company. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999463 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999463
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 22:16:07 GMT
John Mackay wrote "maybe a president or CEO of a Fortune 500 company." Yes. Are you "snobbing" me from your call center, Raj?
@John Mackay: No, I was just making fun of his "usual American snobbery" comment by being over the top. Then I saw the trailer park comment and thought I'd respond. Raj and I are actually buds. Except he gets all the chicks. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999458 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999458
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 22:15:14 GMT
Michael Choate wrote "Yes. Are you "snobbing" me from your call center, Raj?..." I am wondering how many American kids raised by Western parenting can be CEO or President of a Fortune 500 company? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999457 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999457
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 22:15:00 GMT
John Mackay wrote "I am wondering how many American kids raised by Western parenting ..." "Are Asians over-represented in suicide rates, depression rates, etc?"
check out the other posts, at least one group, Asian women (15-24) have the highest rate of suicide rates. Second, even granting the Asians are over-represented in Ivy's, the point is NOT between more books over more socializing (because it is red-herring), it is between Chua's extreme style of parenting and the emotional well-being (DESPITE all the trappings of 'success') of children who grew up under people like her.
So, yes, unless you can have evidence a) Asian "success" is directly proportional to the method of Chua's parenting style controlling All other variables b) if that parenting style is exported to Blacks/hispanic it will produce the same 'success' rate and c) the emotional scars coming out of these extreme parenting is negligible (please don't give your own example) compared to the overall rate of 'happiness' , my points still stand..
2) I asked the same question to Apratim Sarkar, do you WANT them to spit on your plate if they are indeed serving you? Conversely, I ask you this, if one of those 'slackers' ends up being another Bruce Springsteen or Michael Jackson, would you (along with Harvard colleagues) stand in the line to buy the ticket?? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999440 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999440
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 22:12:16 GMT
Shuvo Datta wrote ""Are Asians over-represented in suicide rates, depression rates, etc?"..." Michael, are you trying to provide evidence for Raj's accusation that Americans are snob? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999439 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999439
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 22:12:12 GMT
John Mackay wrote "Michael, are you trying to provide evidence for Raj's accusation that Americans are snob?" Just like the Native Americans were really glad your previous generations stayed back? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999436 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999436
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 22:11:57 GMT
Arzan Raimalwala wrote "Just like the Native Americans were really glad your previous generations ..." If I had no sense of humor, I would long ago have committed suicide. ~Mahatma Gandhi
I'm worried about you, Su. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999422 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999422
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 22:08:16 GMT
Michael Choate wrote "If I had no sense of humor, I would long ago have committed ..." I actually think the fact that so many Asian students come to American universities to study is the very thing we should applause to. Just look at this discussion thread, how many Asian/Chinese people (American or non-American) can argue with excellent English, right logic and straight facts! How many of us can do the same thing on Chinese, Japanese or Korean BBS? This fact alone speaks out loud for the truth! I think this is something serious, not something we should mock them about.
Behind all this fact reflect a very important issue, it's called attitute. It doesn't matter how much one is left behind, as long as you are determined to learn with a right attitute, in the end you will definitely be able to catch up or even surpass!
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999419 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999419
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 22:07:35 GMT
John Mackay wrote "I actually think the fact that so many Asian students come to American ..." Snobbing me from a trailer park, Michael?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999407 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999407
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 22:04:31 GMT
Raj Ramjit wrote "Snobbing me from a trailer park, Michael? " "The end should always be compatible to the means, ie. lovers and lovable people are produce by love."
That was awesome! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999387 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999387
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 22:00:40 GMT
Michael Choate wrote ""The end should always be compatible to the means, ie. lovers and lovable people are ..." Rock on sister. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999383 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999383
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:59:24 GMT
Abslom Daak wrote "Rock on sister." Thanks for the casual empiricism. Get me some data. Are Asians over-represented in suicide rates, depression rates, etc? Because they're DEFINITELY over-represented at top schools, top jobs, top positions in public life/academia as well the private sector. Comparing apples to oranges doesn't tell you much, one of the things that my "Chinese" parents and Ivy League school taught me.
And Ms. Catherine Stewart, I was referring to a previous post who compared what the author was saying to his own experiences with his Deep South father who abused him. Read, then post? Oh well. And yes, I'll concede that going to a top school and being "successful" in the conventional sense isn't everything. But it's better than nothing. And who says you can't have both? Not me (I do have both). Thanks for your input, Catherine - I'll remember it the next time your kid asks me if I want fries with my burger. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999377 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999377
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:58:44 GMT
Nishith Desai wrote "Thanks for the casual empiricism. Get me some data. Are Asians over-represented in ..." I believe Dr. Chua is actually from the Philippines not China, so why call her a "Chinese Mother"?
Many Asians are involved in religions that are committed to "Honoring their parents" to the point of worship. The western view has an emphasis on the Hebrew Bible that commanded Adam and Eve to "Leave mother and father and cleave to your mate and become one flesh". No such command exists in Asian traditions. In fact, an Asian is never supposed to "Leave Mother and Father..."
The most important ideas that propel many Asians to drive their children so mercilessly is the all encompassing notion of "Filial Piety". This idea is as pervasive in many Asian homes and cultures as freedom of speech is to Americans. For a child to fail to be filial is to bring shame on the parents and all the ancestors. It is so strong that it may even prohibit them from entering eternal peace.
Secondly, in the east children have no rights. Parents have rights but their kids do not. Westerners hold to "Being created in the image of God' as a philosophical foundation. I have never heard a non Christian from Asia suggest such a thing.
I enjoy seeing all these comments from people who are criticizing Dr. Chua on the basis of Judeo-Christian traditions. However, I doubt that most of them know the Genesis of their philosophic ideas. Their unconscious acceptance of biblical ideas is heartening.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999373 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999373
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:58:07 GMT
Gary Sweeten wrote "I believe Dr. Chua is actually from the Philippines not China, so why ..." If the title of this article were, "Parenting Techniques of New Amaricans", would it have gotten 7K comments. Get a grip people. The author struck gold when the WSJ decided to go with this title....it's as simple as that. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999369 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999369
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:57:17 GMT
Kurt McFarlane wrote "If the title of this article were, "Parenting Techniques of New Amaricans", would it have ..." I'd be curious to know what you do for a living http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999358 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999358
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:54:33 GMT
Daniel Maycock wrote "I'd be curious to know what you do for a living" That's right, an american older male making fun of a 15 year old--way to go! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999342 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999342
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:52:15 GMT
Su woo wrote "That's right, an american older male making fun of a 15 year old--way to ..." I am sure any mother, Chinese or not, would abandon control, if she knew that kinder ways produce more accomplished and happy people. The guidance it out there: Books like, Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves, by Naomi Aldort (whose two of three kids are shining classical musicians,) Unconditional Parenting, and Punished by Rewards by Alfie Kohn, Your Competent Child, by Jesper Juul are just a few resources, leading the way toward raising self-reliant creative, able and happy people. Aldort talks about raising children who are not only powerful and successful on the outside, but also content, peaceful and happy on the inside.
Control breeds emotional suffering, whether seen on the outside or not. Dependency on parental approval, fear of lack of it, fear of failing and anxiety to fulfill parental expectations, are the source of pain, confusion, depression, suicide, addictions, unhappiness, inability to trust, aggression and more.
Chua believes that her daughter’s cuddling in bed with her after her controlling fit about piano practice, is loving. Yet, it is well known that abused children often cuddle, express love and are affectionate to the abuser in desperate home to reconnect. The child must believe that “mother is right,” or else they are lost inside. This is the natural response to abuse, trying desperately to connect. Read Alice Miller’s book to understand more of this natural child’s behavior. It has nothing to do with love.
The above authors, specially Aldort, lead the way toward raising capable, powerful and happy people, without control and domination yet not in a permissive way. The children behave well, “because they want to, of their own free will.” When there is a way to achieve better results, why resort to old fashioned and painful ways? We don’t need obedient clones. We need to support and guide children in a ways that allow them to flourish in the most optimal way to who they are.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999336 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999336
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:50:23 GMT
hemyola Shantini wrote "I am sure any mother, Chinese or not, would abandon control, if she ..." I am sure any mother, Chinese or not, would abandon control, if she knew that kinder ways produce more accomplished and happy people. The guidance it out there: Books like, Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves, by Naomi Aldort (whose two of three kids are shining classical musicians,) Unconditional Parenting, and Punished by Rewards by Alfie Kohn, Your Competent Child, by Jesper Juul are just a few resources, leading the way toward raising self-reliant creative, able and happy people. Aldort talks about raising children who are not only powerful and successful on the outside, but also content, peaceful and happy on the inside.
Control breeds emotional suffering, whether seen on the outside or not. Dependency on parental approval, fear of lack of it, fear of failing and anxiety to fulfill parental expectations, are the source of pain, confusion, depression, suicide, addictions, unhappiness, inability to trust, aggression and more.
Chua believes that her daughter’s cuddling in bed with her after her controlling fit about piano practice, is loving. Yet, it is well known that abused children often cuddle, express love and are affectionate to the abuser in desperate home to reconnect. The child must believe that “mother is right,” or else they are lost inside. This is the natural response to abuse, trying desperately to connect. Read Alice Miller’s book to understand more of this natural child’s behavior. It has nothing to do with love.
The above authors, specially Aldort, lead the way toward raising capable, powerful and happy people, without control and domination yet not in a permissive way. The children behave well, “because they want to, of their own free will.” When there is a way to achieve better results, why resort to old fashioned and painful ways? We don’t need obedient clones. We need to support and guide children in a ways that allow them to flourish in the most optimal way to who they are.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999334 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999334
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:50:17 GMT
hemyola Shantini wrote "I am sure any mother, Chinese or not, would abandon control, if she ..." Almost as low as your sense of humor. Lighten up. It's what us crazy Americans do. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999333 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999333
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:50:12 GMT
Michael Choate wrote "Almost as low as your sense of humor. Lighten up. It's what us crazy ..." Alan, read a few of your posts. you are keen and wise. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999329 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999329
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:49:11 GMT
John Mackay wrote "Alan, read a few of your posts. you are keen and wise." OMG! I just pee'd my pants! That was hilarious and much needed levity. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999320 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999320
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:47:47 GMT
Michael Choate wrote "OMG! I just pee'd my pants! That was hilarious and much needed levity...." Bingo Rachel, your post is short but very well said!
Applause! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999314 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999314
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:46:42 GMT
John Mackay wrote "Bingo Rachel, your post is short but very well said! Applause!" The title is horrible as well as the content. What the author portrayed isn't a 'parental style'. It is pure tyranny. To agree with the author is to say Hitler's politics is just another way to govern people. Hitler was very effective in achieving his goals. Just because a person is able to achieve his or her goals doesn't make what they're doing right. The end doesn't always justifies the mean. The end should always be compatible to the means, ie. lovers and lovable people are produce by love. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999296 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999296
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:44:23 GMT
Peter Fong wrote "The title is horrible as well as the content. What the author portrayed isn't a 'parental style'. It is ..." @ Jack Moreno: Hey, isn't "jack" something guys do that don't have a date? Seriously though, I don't really follow an in-demand language like Hindi. All the Indians that work with me speak English. So we're good like that. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999287 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999287
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:43:10 GMT
Michael Choate wrote "@ Jack Moreno: Hey, isn't "jack" something guys do that don't ..." WOW, you're making fun of her kids, how low can you go? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999266 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999266
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:39:41 GMT
Su woo wrote "WOW, you're making fun of her kids, how low can you ..." I think most "western parents" would shy away from this type of thinking because:
1. You ever notice how all of the very top innovators seem to be the people who break with traditional conventions and go their own way, or who come from non elite backgrounds? Bill gates dropped out of college, Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak were just a couple of geeks in their garage and even Albert Einstein was considered a substandard student (the Austrian school system at the time stressed the kind of drilling and rote memorization that the author describes in the article).
2. Most parents would be afraid of winding up with a 25 year old who's wearing their head as a hat while dancing in front of a mirror with his member tucked between his legs..."It puts the lotion on its skin, or else it gets the hose again....
I'm just sayin'....
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999257 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999257
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:37:57 GMT
bob smith wrote "I think most "western parents" would shy away from this ..." maybe some chinese mothers act like this, but definitely not in mainland china. asian upper middle class americans do tend to fit this stereotype, especially the japanese. what is a closer truth is the anti intellectual mentality being encouraged in the united states by elected officials and the public school system . that will be our doom. raising stupid kids helps no one. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999247 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999247
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:36:03 GMT
Robert Reed wrote "maybe some chinese mothers act like this, but definitely not in mainland china. asian ..." Hey, wait a minute, doesn't "Choate" mean sh t in Hindi? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999243 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999243
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:35:46 GMT
Jack Moreno wrote "Hey, wait a minute, doesn't "Choate" mean sh t in Hindi?" Su Woo.... Gesundheit! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999234 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999234
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:34:01 GMT
Michael Choate wrote "Su Woo.... Gesundheit!" You can also train a dog to perform tricks, but you can't instill in it a sense of creativity or a sense of purpose and meaning for its life. These girls are being taught how to perform piano pieces, and to do math problems, but how likely are they to write their own concertos or come up with their own innovations? Not likely, if their only motivation to achieve is to avoid punishment.
Also, such extreme measures can lead to a breaking point and take a grave toll on a child, and situations like this certainly bring to mind campus shooters (an alarmingly high number of whom are Asian). Children need friends and positive social settings in order to be able to interact with others in a normal way. I guarantee you that Chua's daughters, while fairly successful, will never be the CEO or President of a Fortune 500 company, because they simply will not have the social skills required of such a position. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999222 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999222
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:31:52 GMT
Brianna Baily wrote "You can also train a dog to perform tricks, but you can't instill in it a ..." You can also train a dog to perform tricks, but you can't instill in it a sense of creativity or a sense of purpose and meaning for its life. These girls are being taught how to perform piano pieces, and to do math problems, but how likely are they to write their own concertos or come up with their own innovations? Not likely, if their only motivation to achieve is to avoid punishment.
Also, such extreme measures can lead to a breaking point and take a grave toll on a child, and situations like this certainly bring to mind campus shooters (an alarmingly high number of whom are Asian). Children need friends and positive social settings in order to be able to interact with others in a normal way. I guarantee you that Chua's daughters, while fairly successful, will never be the CEO or President of a Fortune 500 company, because they simply will not have the social skills required of such a position. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999221 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999221
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:31:48 GMT
Brianna Baily wrote "You can also train a dog to perform tricks, but you can't instill in it a ..." How's this for snobbery,... go back to India and live a typical Indian life complete with Sitars, brushing your teeth in the Ganges River next to the rotting corpses, and having servants. Trust me, we won't even miss you. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999218 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999218
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:31:34 GMT
Michael Choate wrote "How's this for snobbery,... go back to India and live a typical Indian life complete with ..." First of all, you spelled MARY wrong, and i think it's about educating SOME people who are commenting here-who obviously have no inkling of what Asians contribute other than the stereotypical, media driven thinking that we are ALL copycats and repressed people who throw away or torture our children. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999211 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999211
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:31:08 GMT
Su woo wrote "First of all, you spelled MARY wrong, and i think it's about educating ..." Agree! Generally speaking, Chinese parents believe educating children is both parents and that child's job; but many American parents believe it is the teachers' job. Why couldn't we review our thoughts, think deep, learn from the Chinese way: high standards, discipline, limited TV time, and learn from American parenting: creative thinking, independent and leadership.
If we want to be world leader as we are, we have to change our way to educate our children. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999207 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999207
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:30:15 GMT
Crystal Jiang wrote "Agree! Generally speaking, Chinese parents believe educating children is both parents and that ..." C3PO getting straight A's? R2D2 plays piano or violin? Sounds like great comedy materials. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999204 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999204
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:29:44 GMT
Chris Doe wrote "C3PO getting straight A's? R2D2 plays piano or violin? Sounds like great ..." I firmly believe that every culture has its own idiosyncrasies when it comes to raising children, and that's fine. Billing one method as superior to all others - and singling out Western parenting in particular - is quite another matter. Personally, I would never employ the Eastern standard highlighted by Dr. Chua. I think there are other ways to motivate a child beyond demeaning them and robbing them of the simple joys of childhood. Dr. Chua's daughters were fortunate to have a father who served as a mediating Western influence. What about families with dual Tiger parents? How sad to grow up under such intense scrutiny! My goal is to raise a happy, creative, and thoughtful child, even if it means she doesn't play in Symphony Hall at 14 years old. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999192 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999192
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:27:31 GMT
Dianna Coppolo wrote "I firmly believe that every culture has its own idiosyncrasies when it ..." Wow...the reaction here is typical of Americans...which is why we are raising a generation filled with great excuses instead of fortitude. I am not saying that this applies to all...so please don't go ballistic.
There is a lot of truth here in this article, although it could put today's parents against our own parents. It is true, the earlier generation had little qualms about being "sensitive"...and we did not evolve for the worse..
Do not look at this article with the usual American snobbery of how dare they think they are better than us...because that is why the U.S. is being overtaken by developing countries in some areas....INSTEAD, compare yourselves against your own parents. Simply put, how long did it take you to do something when your parents told you to do it?...compare this against your child's response time...
I find nothing insulting in this article..although she seems over the top...but the point is well taken. Less cuddling and more parenting. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999185 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999185
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:26:19 GMT
Raj Ramjit wrote "Wow...the reaction here is typical of Americans...which is why we are raising a generation ..." Before you go nuts on the CHINA BASHING and getting it ALL wrong and showing us your racism-read the subtitle of the book--its a book on HER experience as a mother. BTW, she is from AMERICA not CHINA. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999182 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999182
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:25:33 GMT
Su woo wrote "Before you go nuts on the CHINA BASHING and getting it ALL wrong and showing ..." Why is everyonoe so uptight? I found the article hysterically funny. Amy - awesome comedic writing here. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999153 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999153
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:21:17 GMT
Mary Trozzo wrote "Why is everyonoe so uptight? I found the article hysterically funny. Amy - ..." lol..nice reaction.. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999151 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999151
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:21:01 GMT
Raj Ramjit wrote "lol..nice reaction.." Something tells me Amy Chua is not a highly humorous person. I guess that's why her "satirical" piece in WSJ didn't come across as funny to most people.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/16/fashion/16Cultural.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2
Ms. Chua’s husband appears only peripherally in “Tiger Mother” — though there is one battle in which she lashes out at him after he worries that she is pushing their daughters to the point that there is “no breathing room” in their home.
“All you do is think about writing your own books and your own future,” she says to him. “What dreams do you have for Sophia or for Lulu? Do you ever think about that? What dreams do you have for Coco?” He bursts out laughing — Coco is their dog.
She concludes, “I didn’t understand what was so funny, but I was glad our fight was over.” http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999137 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999137
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:17:26 GMT
Chris Doe wrote "Something tells me Amy Chua is not a highly humorous person. I guess that's ..." WOW! Don't hold back your political correctness, or your racism. Just let it rip! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999106 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999106
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:08:57 GMT
Su woo wrote "WOW! Don't hold back your political correctness, or your racism. Just ..." It has much more to do with genetics than upbringing. Being a nazi parent can only take you so far if your child isn't intellectually capable of performing well in school. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999103 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999103
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:08:03 GMT
David Lee wrote "It has much more to do with genetics than upbringing. Being a nazi parent ..." The truth is, what Amy Chua really said and meant in her book don't matter. What her daughter said about her mother don't matter either! People have no interest to read and think deep about all that.
The only thing matters here is the title of the article given by WSJ. It's too arrogant and offensive. It has made both Chinese and non-Chinese feel offended.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999099 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999099
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:07:07 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "The truth is, what Amy Chua really said and meant in her book don't ..." I hope Chua's daughters C3P0 and R2D2 have a great life. Meep! Meep! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999098 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999098
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:07:01 GMT
Michael Choate wrote "I hope Chua's daughters C3P0 and R2D2 have a great life. Meep! ..." In general, all of us do the best we can with what we understand to be the "right" thing. If you were to do the exact same thing with 2 different children you would get two different results. There is no perfect answer. And, more often than not, all of us leave childhood with at least one or two emotional scars. Creating an outstanding case to show difference does nothing to help us grow unless you can also show where the commonalities are. This author only stated her beliefs & presented Western parents as not as good, in a manner of speaking. There are success stories of parenting in all cultures,..just do your best & learn by experience how to do better folks! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999082 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999082
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:03:51 GMT
Rachel Mossakowski wrote "In general, all of us do the best we can with what we understand to be the &..." What Amy Chua really meant in her book don't matter. What her daughter said about her mother don't matter either! People have no interest to read all that.
The only thing matters here is the title of the article given by WSJ. It's too arrogant and offensive. It has made both Chinese and non-Chinese feel offended. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999073 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999073
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:02:08 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "What Amy Chua really meant in her book don't matter. What ..." What a piece of GARBAGE reporting by the Wall Street Journal. Myopic, one-sided, and entirely based on anecdotes from the author's (frankly, horrifying) past.
The irony of the article is that, by laying out in painful detail what the author calls "Chinese parenting", it actually is the perfect demonstration of how NOT to raise your kids.. And, by being a disgusting collection of racist generalizations and horrifying anecdotes, it is the perfect demonstration of how people who have been raised this way turn out as adults.
In the typical brain-dead-idiocy of someone who was raised like the author was, she actually doesn't realize that there is some middle ground between what she describes as "Chinese parenting" but I would describe as slavery, and what she ignorantly (and frankly in a racist way) describes as "Western parenting".
I'm happy to say I picked my own extracurriculars, did watch TV, slept over at friends' homes (sometimes even outside of friends' homes), and still got straight A's and made to to Stanford. Now 24, I'm thankful I'm a person and not an automaton racked by years of insecurities, terrified of life and in a job I hate because of society's pressure. I feel sorry for the author, but most of all I feel sorry -and angry- for her kids. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999057 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999057
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 20:57:43 GMT
Roham Gharegozlou wrote "What a piece of GARBAGE reporting by the Wall Street Journal. Myopic, one-sided, and ..." 1.5BB+ Chinese people have not peered too far into the future, it would seem, given that the ecology of the land that they inhabit will have a very rough time adapting to their modernization initiatives. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999051 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999051
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 20:56:19 GMT
DANIEL CUMMINS wrote "1.5BB+ Chinese people have not peered too far into the future, it would seem, ..." "you don't know what it means by syllables. "
I assumed it was the same definition that we use in linguistics. Consonant/vowel separation is one definition. If Gladwell is using a non-standard definition then you should provide it.
"You can ask any two children to cite the multiplication table in Chinese and English and see who goes faster."
Well I doubt *any* two children but sure there are fewer syllables in Chinese because any time I've heard someone recite (not cite) it they say ""ji6 ji6 dak1 sei3" compared to "two times two is four" however that's kind of arbitrary "two twos are four" is exactly the same length and is equally valid "ni-ni-ga-roku" in Japanese is five syllables and Japanese tends to be comparable to places like Taiwan in the studies I've read. But again if Gladwell has made up some definition for the term "syllable" let me know.
Anyway like I said most math isn't recited so it's hard to assume this confers much weight. Especially since the few studies I've seen on this don't really show much advantage in the area of operations over the US. It was things like problem solving where Asian countries had an advantage. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999031 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999031
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 20:51:30 GMT
Kim Eagles wrote ""you don't know what it means by syllables. "I assumed it was the ..." My Chinese mother was not a "tiger mother". She was extremely liberal, never laid out any household rules. I never had a curfew and nor was I ever forbidden to do anything (including drinking and having boyfriends). The only thing she pressed was endless curiosity and critical thinking. Nevertheless, I can speak 3 languages fluently, am learning a 4th, have traveled the world extensively and have written for the Washington Post. I'm also an undergraduate student with a near perfect GPA. My brother is a law student at one the best law schools in the US, graduating at the top of the class with an incredible job offer. If you're smart, then you don't need this kind of abuse to excel in life. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999028 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999028
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 20:50:31 GMT
Ti-Anna Wang wrote "My Chinese mother was not a "tiger mother". She was extremely liberal, never ..." To Calley Murray,
???????????. The world is ever changing. If you saw some "superior tone" from my original post, I am sorry. It only suggests that you have a mindset of "superior or inferior", and I can sense your insecure feeling.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999026 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999026
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 20:50:03 GMT
KOU QIN wrote "To Calley Murray,???????????. The world is ever changing. If you saw some "superior ..." What a piece of *GARBAGE* reporting by the Wall Street Journal. Myopic, one-sided, and entirely based on anecdotal evidence from the author's (pretty horrifying) past.
The irony of the piece, in my opinion, is that it highlights in agonizing detail exactly WHY this style of parenting borders on inhumane treatment. "Chinese parenting", as described in this article, amounts to training a poodle to dance. I actually didn't know it was this bad, so I guess thanks WSJ for enlightening (and horrifying) me.
I hope the author is as racist and small-minded as it seems, because if "chinese parenting" is really like this, and is really that widespread.. Then I'm scared. These guys are the future shepherds/policemen of the world...? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999022 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999022
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 20:49:08 GMT
Roham Gharegozlou wrote "What a piece of *GARBAGE* reporting by the Wall Street Journal. Myopic, one-sided, and ..." Guess that's why there are so many commentors here are bashing China and Chinese people in China, and even communism while Amy Chua has nothing to do with all of those except for her Chinese heritage. Because in these people's mind, Amy Chua is a Chinese, not an American, even though she was born and raised here. It all finally boils down to the racial.
How idiotic! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999014 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1999014
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 20:47:36 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Guess that's why there are so many commentors here are bashing China and Chinese people in ..." How socially inept and just plain WEIRD Chua's daughters must be. Oh wait---did the article say she had DAUGHTERS? You mean she actually kept them? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998973 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998973
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 20:37:36 GMT
Suzan St. John wrote "How socially inept and just plain WEIRD Chua's daughters must be. Oh ..." KOU QIN--
He probably never will be expressing his opinion on a Chinese website the way you are expressing yours on an American website. Why is that? Could it be that success for the Chinese means studying at an American university? Yet you clearly hold your culture and society as the superior one. Interesting. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998970 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998970
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 20:37:13 GMT
Calley Murray wrote "KOU QIN--He probably never will be expressing his opinion on a Chinese website the ..." I am a Chinese Dad. I think most Chinese parents especially those in US are trying to strike a balance between study and play. All I can say is that Chua is a fake Chinese mom, and a freak. This article serves for bashing China and Chinese while sounding a complimentary to Chinese Moms. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998965 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998965
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 20:34:50 GMT
zane cheng wrote "I am a Chinese Dad. I think most Chinese parents especially ..." Yeah, great argument ~~~ very creative!
Everybody should be in a rock band! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998950 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998950
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 20:32:43 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Yeah, great argument ~~~ very creative! Everybody should be in a rock band!" So true. She is succeeding in many ways. But the souls of her children are embittered against her and, if someone is more intelligent than them or has better grades than them, against that person and the world.
She will be accountable for their souls one day, and she will find her parenting style faulty. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998940 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998940
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 20:30:42 GMT
Cordelia Bontrager wrote "So true. She is succeeding in many ways. But the souls of her children are embittered ..." "My son's point is exactly what you've exhibited, not willing to see the sacarsm, and repeatedly infer supremacy and lying"
My Hamster's point is that your son is wrong and that his authority on the subject is about the same. As I said earlier I based it on her actions.
"And let's not forget you or Brooks are the ones who first use the "intent" trick"
I don't know about Brooks but there is no trick. In one case I'm looking at the logical consequence of her actions and in the other I'm just admitting that she can say anything she wants.
"Who are the defensive here? If we are not, why the debate?"
I don't know what 'who are in the defensive' means. I just think you're saying some things that are incorrect. Your need to cast one side as 'defensive' is strange.
" Did Brooks offer any evidence that is statistically significant?"
No but neither do you offer any evidence to defeat the assertion. So it stays plausible.
"I surely can't count the ones I interacted closely with over my 25 years in China living in various cities, and 17 years here being involved in Chinese schools and Chinese Associations"
Each and every one you have done a detailed examination as to their social ability and you can recall each and every one? Even considering that people generally only maintain prolonged social relationships with about 200 people?
" It is now confirmed that you think Chua a liar, then I see no point for arguing what so ever."
Yawn. No I think it is REASONABLE TO BELIEVE that Ms. Chua lies and exaggerates. Almost everyone does. Likewise is also plausible that she is lying or exaggerating the truth now. If you can't carry on a discussion about some personality without entertaining the assertion that they may not be telling the truth then I expect you're kind of limited in what you can discuss.
"Why would Chua be so concerned about the backslash?"
Argument from ignorance. You are implying if I can't give you a reason that is a counter-argument to the idea that there is one.
"Where is the backslash?"
All that's required is for her to perceive a backlash (not backslash) In the Q&A she herself stated that she felt as if she has been constantly defending the article. You assume she is telling the truth, ergo you must accept that she feels some backlash exists (unless you think she is lying which before you said you couldn't)
"How many will be statistically significant at 5% level?" Those countless happy kids wouldn't even bother posting comments."
Some posted positively here. None of these comments (for or against) would be statistically significant. The sample is not random.
"My sample? Small?"
It depends, if you still claim that you can precisely recall and evaluate socially people's social abilities that sample is larger but it has recall bias and since we don't know the sensitivity of the test we are performing we're never sure if it's "large enough". If you reduce to the few hundred people that most people can speak on with some degree of authority it's small. I don't make the rules for statistical significance incidentally.
"What bias?"
Selection bias.
"For you to have brushed aside first my observation from her daughters, then my countless observation, I regret for having inferred your intention as being serious."
Nothing like casting aspersions on someone when they don't agree with you. The answer is simple, most peoples samples suffer from several kinds of bias. If they didn't we wouldn't have to randomize when we do studies.
" That Shanghai is ranked number 1 in academic achievement and the US is nowhere near is evidence? Oh bias you'd say again."
No not bias but significance, although the US is ranked low in these scores. It's difficult to determine exactly what you are measuring and how significant the results are. For example the US is beneath Shanghai by 113 pts. What does that represent? What is the variance in the exam scores? Even PISA proponents wonder about the statistical significance. Also remember that the sample is not random it is self-selected by the country. As far as we know this just measures how important the PISA score is to the country. Also it's unclear if Ms. Chua is talking about westerners outside of the US. Canada for example has been in the top decile since the tests began and is western.
"If this book has come out at a time where the US is so confident about it's superior education system, would it still have stirred so much"
No idea what the US in general thinks for it's education. Worry about the US education system has existed for decades even when comparing to China.
"I say again, defensiveness?"
Because you like saying that.
"One comment said it so well, th... http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998934 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998934
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 20:29:07 GMT
Kim Eagles wrote ""My son's point is exactly what you've exhibited, not willing to see the ..." Destroying the peace in your home is not worth it. So what if your child is good at everything? Sure, it's great to succeed! I agree. But teaching your children values, ones that help them in life, in relationships and in a work environment is so much more useful. It is obvious, from your relationship with your husband that your parents were not careful in the upbringing of your soul. They taught you to be "the best" at everything, but not how to be a servant to others and to be a woman of submission and character. You need to find a balance, woman. What is likely to happen is your children will appreciate that you helped them succeed in academia, but they will find relationships to be hard for them.
Train your children in both excellence and relationships and you will have happy, thankful, well-liked children who will thank you for the rest of your life. I know because my parents did just this. I thank heaven everyday for my parents because they cared for me and who I became, more than they cared for their pride. I fail in many areas, I will admit. I read at 3, was taught piano for 17 years, got a full ride scholarship to a college, but still, I am not the worlds smartest woman, I will never be a concert pianist, and there were other people in my classes at school who knew a lot more than me and received better grades than I did. But, it just doesn't matter.
You have so many things right, don't fail your children in some of the important areas. :) You will be accountable for their souls when on the judgement day. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998921 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998921
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 20:27:50 GMT
Cordelia Bontrager wrote "Destroying the peace in your home is not worth it. So what if your child is good at ..." I may not be in a rock band, but I was an amateur journalist for a local newspaper. And you will never be a scientist and master another language to express your opinion on a Chinese website. You probably never visit to other countries and have the interest to explore other cultures. Good luck with your rock band and hope you can rock a new world out of it. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998877 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998877
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 20:19:22 GMT
KOU QIN wrote "I may not be in a rock band, but I was an amateur journalist for a local newspaper. And you will ..." I have a profound respect for cultures and traditions more ancient than my own, but I cannot help but laugh at the absurdity of the restrictions placed on the Chua girls. One thing they certainly won't be taught by this parenting style is how to think and choose for themselves. Academics and social development are equally important for prospering in todays world, and these girls are being molded into one-dimensional, mindless automatons. What happens when their day, their interests and their choices aren't decided for them? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998871 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998871
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 20:18:20 GMT
Josh Franklin wrote "I have a profound respect for cultures and traditions more ancient than my ..." Chinese mom, Western mom. I think East vs. West is the wrong way to look at this. These different parenting styles are not due to cultural differences. Individuals within each culture just have different upbringing styles. Even among my extended my family, my parents were tiger-"ish," (didn't really say I was worthless POS but said I would turn into one if I didn't listen) but some of my aunts and uncles were too coddling of their children.
I think this is more Sparta vs. Athens than Chinese vs. Western. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998769 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998769
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 19:58:01 GMT
Jack Moreno wrote "Chinese mom, Western mom. I think East vs. West is the wrong ..." Human nature. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998760 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998760
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 19:55:45 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Human nature." Sounds like a stimulus package. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998756 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998756
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 19:54:05 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Sounds like a stimulus package." It's over rated, other than easy drug access. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998753 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998753
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 19:53:13 GMT
Vicky Wu wrote "It's over rated, other than easy drug access." But you'll never be in a rock band! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998732 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998732
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 19:48:59 GMT
Spencer Clark wrote "But you'll never be in a rock band!" Please, read before commenting.
She is an America born American. Her parents came from Philippines. And WSJ gave this excerpt a provoking title to get attention.
I understand you want to bash China, but this has NOTHING to do with China. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998728 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998728
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 19:47:50 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Please, read before commenting. She is an America born American. Her parents ..." I am a Chinese PhD student who is studying in an American college. My mom is a little bit like this "tiger mother". She asked me (at age of 6~11) to memorize and recite different hard ancient poems from Tang dynasty to Song dynasty before dinners, otherwise I was not allowed to eat. My math teacher in middle school asked me to solve difficult advanced math questions before going to bed, I often went to bed after 11 PM... And I knew my mom bribed the math teacher to do that. At times, I didn't like it, even hated it. But I am very grateful for what my mom had done to me. If it's not her I would not able to do well in school, learn foreign languages, come to US and pursue my dream in academia... Because my tiger mother, a whole new world is exposed to me, and I have tons of opportunities in a competitive world.
My mom loves me in very way. I love her too. It is just that the love is so deep and harsh. I never told my mom "I love you". My mom never say that to me, neither. It is just the way Chinese showing their love without saying it out loud.
I thank my mom for pushing me when I was young. And I thank Amy Chua for telling the truth.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998715 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998715
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 19:44:15 GMT
KOU QIN wrote "I am a Chinese PhD student who is studying in an American college. My ..." I have nothing negative to say about the article. In western culture, sports are used to instill discipline in a child. At least, that's how I feel about sports. We allow coaches to demand the absolute best out of the players on the team yet, as parents, we shy away from that same demand. This behavior is something I never understood. Has western culture really taught our kids that it is ok to give up? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998687 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998687
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 19:37:18 GMT
Ian Eccles wrote "I have nothing negative to say about the article. In western culture, sports are ..." I think alot of these comments are kind of rendered moot by the entire title of the book- which few people seem to have bothered to look at:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/1594202842/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998650 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998650
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 19:27:17 GMT
Kelvin Mao wrote "I think alot of these comments are kind of rendered moot by the entire title of the book- ..." In reading some of the posts, it is clear that there are some who are terribly uninformed or misinformed about Asian Americans/Chinese Americans. Including those who recommend these posts. Others have tried to correct this perceived ignorance, sharing with us their insights and, yes, some inconvenient facts.
John Maynard Keynes once said “When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?”
I am also reminded, however, of what Thomas Gray wrote almost 300 years ago...
To each his suff'rings: all are men,
Condemn'd alike to groan,
The tender for another's pain;
Th' unfeeling for his own.
Yet ah! why should they know their fate?
Since sorrow never comes too late,
And happiness too swiftly flies.
Thought would destroy their paradise.
No more; where ignorance is bliss,
'Tis folly to be wise.
Human nature doesn't seem to change very much.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998644 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998644
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 19:27:06 GMT
Justin Wright wrote "In reading some of the posts, it is clear that there are some who are terribly uninformed or misinformed about ..." I would like a signed copy of this article. I plan to frame it. Any suggestions?
Thank you.
A Western Mother http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998599 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998599
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 19:18:47 GMT
Adriene Monkhouse wrote "I would like a signed copy of this article. I plan to frame it. Any ..." Hey, Shivaji:
I happened to read your post. So I will be right behind you in case this does make into the Guinness. :-)
I second Eric Lam, as "Seriously, Amy and her kids had it easy. My parents were way harsher." applies to me, as well. Your comment "Question is are you an overachiever because of the harsh parenting or in spite of that?" is the question I would like to ask too.
Thank you, guys. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998561 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998561
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 19:13:23 GMT
Hansen Chen wrote "Hey, Shivaji:I happened to read your post. So I will be right ..." By the way, for those reeling in horror about this type of parenting, I guarantee some 500,000 Asian parents are doing the same to their kids in the San Gabriel Valley (Asian suburb of Los Angeles). I grew up in the 626/SGV and that's how parents are here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_enclaves_in_the_San_Gabriel_Valley
It's really not that uncommon..... http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998515 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998515
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 19:04:29 GMT
Eric Lam wrote "By the way, for those reeling in horror about this type of parenting, I guarantee some ..." It is always hard to say which approach is better.
Question is are you an overachiever because of the harsh parenting or in spite of that?
Again, success as defined by the amount of money one makes or the nice title one gets in the job is very narrow. We as human race need to contemplate on what is success. May be it is different for different people.
I know no one probably read my post amongst the several thousand posts on this story. I just want to be part of the story in case this makes it to the Guinness Book of World Records for the maximum number of responses for an essay :) http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998506 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998506
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 19:03:16 GMT
SHIVAJI KUMAR wrote "It is always hard to say which approach is better.Question is are you an overachiever because of the ..." I'm not saying which approach is better, hence why I said I wouldn't necessarily use the same parenting tactics as my parents. However, I'd certainty borrow a number of tactics.
Am I an overachiever because of harsh parenting or am I "gifted"? Honestly, I am not sure. I think it's a combination of both. I think I'm gifted (relative to the average kid because I have a handful of friends who are much more gifted than I am) but I certainly wouldn't have been as focused, determined, or ambitious without my parents whipping me into success.
By the way, to the Asian parent, success is defined by the amount of money one makes. Asian parents don't laud Bill Gates without a reason, lol. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998495 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998495
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 19:01:10 GMT
Eric Lam wrote "I'm not saying which approach is better, hence why I said I ..." It is always hard to say which approach is better.
Question is are you an overachiever because of the harsh parenting or in spite of that?
Again, success as defined by the amount of money one makes or the nice title one gets in the job is very narrow. We as human race need to contemplate on what is success. May be it is different for different people.
I know no one probably read my post amongst the several thousand posts on this story. I just want to be part of the story in case this makes it to the Guinness Book of World Records for the maximum number of responses for an essay :) http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998467 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998467
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 18:54:29 GMT
SHIVAJI KUMAR wrote "It is always hard to say which approach is better.Question is are you an overachiever because of the ..." The Chinese didn't invent strict parenting. The human animal benefits from a combination (often unique to particular individuals) of rote drill, creative leisure, arts, and hands on as well as book learned science, history, natural history, etc. If a child's talent is dance, you wouldn't want to shoehorn her into the piano. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998439 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998439
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 18:48:12 GMT
Miss Prism wrote "The Chinese didn't invent strict parenting. The human animal benefits from a combination (..." Karan, the answer is TO INFORM ANY RACIST AND STEREOTYPE. You can find even more admiring and great facts about your people. Facts are facts, they are convicing or not. If you are not a racist, and if you are confident, you do not need to be upset. Chinese American is about 1% of US population. Many are struggling, some are failing for many reasons, some are successful, just like others... ... http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998378 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998378
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 18:36:16 GMT
mary Chen wrote "Karan, the answer is TO INFORM ANY RACIST AND STEREOTYPE. You can find even ..." Great essay! I'm an American born Chinese and my parents raised me that way. Honestly, I hated it. I lost count how many times I got whooped with the feather duster, threatened with no dinner, etc... I wasn't allowed to watch TV, I had to memorize the dictionary and sine tables, couldn't go out, etc...
Anyways, now that I'm 27 and somewhat of an overachiever, I can see why they did it and I respect them for it (even though I absolutely hated them/it at the time).
Would I raise my kids how my parents raised me? Probably not. However, I would take both Western and Eastern parenting ideas. I know I wouldn't beat my kids for poor grades but I'd certainty push my kids as aggressively for academic success.
Seriously, Amy and her kids had it easy. My parents were way harsher. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998364 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998364
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 18:33:22 GMT
Eric Lam wrote "Great essay! I'm an American born Chinese and my parents raised me that ..." I find this article disturbing. It's another way of saying that those who are really not good enough academically are losers who did not do their best. To deny that each person has his own unique abilities is a bit dangerous, especially when it comes to parenting. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998301 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998301
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 18:22:57 GMT
Janis Mae Narvas wrote "I find this article disturbing. It's another way of saying that those who are really not ..." Yes, most of Asian immigrant comes to the United State to seek freedom and prevent our children to the harsh competition and strict regime. Even Easterners trying to adjust their way of parenting, So sad Ms. Chau, a 2nd generation Asian American trying to cover up her problematic behavior and ego by claming her way is “Chinese” way. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998209 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998209
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 18:06:05 GMT
mandy wu wrote "Yes, most of Asian immigrant comes to the United State to seek freedom and prevent ..." I can't speak as a mother, or as a child of a "chinese mother" but I can speak from my own experiences with children of traditional chinese mothers. I attend a pretty darn good private university in the US and I know only about a hand full of kids who have traditional chinese mothers. Those kids are intense, one of my old roommates spoke German, English, Chinese (2 different dialects) and Spanish FLUENTLY, played 3 different instruments since she could remember and was always #1 in her class. Every one of those kids pretty much had the same gifts (I like to call them) but what they could never do was socialize. This is where my concern as a future western mother comes in. I've watched those kids attend any social even from parties, to class, to sporting events but I have never seen them successfully socialize with anyone that they had not known for quite some time.
In my opinion, academic achievement and "success" are great, but if you can't socialize, if you can't make friends, then what do you have? If you can't connect with other human beings because you were never given opportunities to (such as participating on a sports team, going to sleep overs, having puppy-love relationships) then how successful can you really be in life? The kids I knew always had good grades, but they were always depressed, always lonely and always socially awkward (and not in a cute way). When they did get an A- instead of an A it sent them into a mode of hysterical self-loathing.
I understand it's a difference in culture and cultural values (western culture puts more emphasis on individuality) and that's fine. However, in those instances where kids DO "fail," I feel like "chinese mothers" don't provide their children with a safe buffer against the negative feelings that stem from their "failure." I guess what I'm trying to say is that, to me, being able to socialize and connect with other human beings, is just as important (if not more so) than academic achievement. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998197 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998197
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 18:04:22 GMT
Alaina Brangman wrote "I can't speak as a mother, or as a child of a "chinese mother" but I can ..." It is for people as ignorant as me, an education, not a competition. Thank you so much Mary!
Gary Locke, Steven Chu, Elaine Chao, Yoyo Ma, An Lee, Amy Tan, Maxine Hung, Michael Chang, Michelle Kuan etc. Etc.
http://teacher.scholastic.com/activities/asian-american/notables.htm
http://www.asian-nation.org/politics.shtml
http://www.asian-nation.org/artists.shtml
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/apahmfirsts.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998195 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998195
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 18:04:11 GMT
Chunyan Li wrote "It is for people as ignorant as me, an education, not a competition. Thank you so much Mary!..." http://www.pbs.org/becomingamerican/ap_pjourneys_transcript5c.html
"MAYA LIN: No. Again, that was very unusual I think for a Chinese American family. My father was brought up fairly strictly, you know — calligraphy lessons in the morning for an hour and a half., music lessons —upper-crust upbringing.
I think he was a bit of a rebel. He wasn't allowed to go into art in China. Why did he like pottery so much? Because his father had an amazing collection of Chinese ceramics and porcelain so he had an appreciation for it. And then he was finally able to do what he wanted to do in America.
But the side of the Chinese American experience which is arts-based, scholar-based, education-based is a different side.
BILL MOYERS: To the science and the engineering?
MAYA LIN: Exactly. And I think with it came this unusual psyche that we're not gonna force Tan or Maya to do anything they don't wanna do." http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998156 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998156
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 17:57:59 GMT
mandy wu wrote "http://www.pbs.org/becomingamerican/ap_pjourneys_transcript5c.html"MAYA LIN: No. Again, that was very ..." Thank you of mentioning Maya Lin. I remember I watched one of her documentary. Her parents were originally from Beijing and Shanghai, China. His father taught art at Ohio University so she grow up playing in her father’s studio. Play, just play, that’s what she said. Read here
http://www.pbs.org/becomingamerican/ap_pjourneys_transcript5c.html
“MAYA LIN: The only thing they ever said was, "We just want you to be happy." Which I think is a very unusual wish. It's a really beautiful wish. They didn't say anything else. They would not give us any direction, that's the thing. It was always, "As long as you're happy." It wasn't like, "In order for you to be happy, you should do this, this and this." “
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998119 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998119
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 17:52:44 GMT
mandy wu wrote "Thank you of mentioning Maya Lin. I remember I watched one of ..." Could not agree more! This is not a bloody competition.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998115 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998115
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 17:52:06 GMT
John Huang wrote "Could not agree more! This is not a bloody competition." Wow merry You've taken up over two pages in comments. Who the hell are you trying to convince? People that read this or you yourself??? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998078 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998078
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 17:47:03 GMT
Karan Sharma wrote "Wow merry You've taken up over two pages in comments. Who the ..." Asian Americans have made major contributions to the American economy. Fashion designer and mogul Vera Wang, who is famous for designing dresses for high-profile celebrities, started a clothing company, named after herself, which now offers a broad range of luxury fashion products. An Wang founded Wang Laboratories in June 1951. Amar Bose founded the Bose Corporation in 1964. Charles Wang founded Computer Associates, later became its CEO and chairman. Jen-Hsun Huang co-founded the NVIDIA corporation in 1993. Jerry Yang co-founded Yahoo! Inc. in 1994 and became its CEO later. Andrea Jung serves as Chairman and CEO of Avon Products. Vinod Khosla was a founding CEO of Sun Microsystems and is a general partner of the prominent venture capital firm Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers. Steve Chen and Jawed Karim were co-creators of YouTube, and were beneficiaries of Google's $1.65 billion acquisition of that company in 2006. In addition to contributing greatly to other fields, Asian Americans have made considerable contributions in science and technology in the United States, in such prominent innovative R&D regions as Silicon Valley and The Triangle. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998061 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998061
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 17:45:06 GMT
mary Chen wrote "Asian Americans have made major contributions to the American economy. Fashion designer and ..." You have not read the Outliers, so you don't know what it means by syllables. You can ask any two children to cite the multiplication table in Chinese and English and see who goes faster. Gladwell is not talking about markets or the traditional Chinese numbering, he is talking about that slight edge in memorizing the multiplication table for youngsters. Or is that too unchallenging a topic. We are talking apples to oranges then if you haven't read that book, not Blink.
Anecdotes on my siblings? I was just being sincere, sadly for someone who thinks people lie too much. So is Chua's book on two children, and you infer a parenting guide. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998013 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998013
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 17:38:06 GMT
Chunyan Li wrote "You have not read the Outliers, so you don't know what it means by ..." Yes, and she is trying to justify her behavior by blaming on her heritage. So despicable. I just hope people reading her article or book will be able to see this. She is a control freak. She might can blame on her parents but please don’t bring down the whole ethnicity. Had she even know any of us Chinese moms? I bet she lives a more westernized life cause she has a white husband. Please, I don't want to be categorized with her. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998004 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1998004
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 17:36:44 GMT
mandy wu wrote "Yes, and she is trying to justify her behavior by blaming on her heritage. So ..." Nobel laureates
People's Republic of China:
Liu Xiaobo, Peace, 2010
Ei'ichi Negishi*, Chemistry, 2010
Charles K. Kao, Physics, 2009
Roger Y. Tsien, Chemistry, 2008
Gao Xingjian*, Literature, 2000
Daniel C. Tsui, Physics, 1998
Edmond H. Fischer*, Medicine/Physiology, 1992
Tenzin Gyatso (The 14th Dalai Lama), Peace, 1989
Samuel C. C. Ting, Physics, 1976
Chen Ning Yang, Physics, 1957
Tsung-Dao Lee, Physics, 1957
Walter Houser Brattain*, Physics, 1956
Hong Kong, China:
Charles K. Kao, Physics, 2009
Taiwan (Republic of China) :
Yuan Tseh Lee, Chemistry, 1986 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997997 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997997
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 17:36:06 GMT
mary Chen wrote "Nobel laureates People's Republic of China:Liu Xiaobo, Peace, 2010Ei'ichi ..." That is absolutely hitting the nail on the head, you can be 5th generation Asian and people who are NON Asian with LESS of an AMERICAN lineage and SOME uneducated Asians, will no doubt ask you where you REALLY are from. The perception has to change. America is made up of a melting pot of people, the notion that Asians are NOT really Americans has to be corrected in their minds and in their behavior. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997990 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997990
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 17:34:44 GMT
Su woo wrote "That is absolutely hitting the nail on the head, you can be 5th generation Asian and people ..." It all depends on how much effort you want to put into working with your children. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997939 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997939
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 17:26:21 GMT
Daniel Deblock wrote "It all depends on how much effort you want to put into working with your ..."
Arts
Sueo Serisawa helped establish the California Impressionist style of painting. Jim Lee is considered to be one of the most popular comic book artists and is one of the founders of Image Comics. Adrian Tomine's cartoons are featured in The New Yorker. Los Angeles-based artists James Jean and David Choe have received domestic and international recognition within the Lowbrow art scene.
Architecture
Asian Americans have designed notable works of architecture, such as the Louvre Pyramid and East Wing of the National Gallery, designed by the worldwide famous architect I. M. Pei, the World Trade Center, designed by Minoru Yamasaki, and the Vietnam Veterans Memorial and Civil Rights Memorial (1989) designed by Maya Lin. In commercial architecture, Gyo Obata, a founding partner of HOK, designed the National Air and Space Museum in Washington D.C. and the Taipei World Trade Center.Fazlur Rahman Khan designed the John Hancock Center and the Willis Tower (formerly Sears Tower). http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997929 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997929
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 17:24:37 GMT
mary Chen wrote "Arts Sueo Serisawa helped establish the California Impressionist style of painting. Jim ..." She is turning her children into robots http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997916 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997916
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 17:22:36 GMT
Andre Cook wrote "She is turning her children into robots" My son's point is exactly what you've exhibited, not willing to see the sacarsm, and repeatedly infer supremacy and lying. And let's not forget you or Brooks are the ones who first use the "intent" trick and I was just following suit. Who are the defensive here? If we are not, why the debate? Yes Leon is exactly talking about nothingness, "My points stay, they don't know anything." For you who argues for evidence, these are opinions. Did Brooks offer any evidence that is statistically significant?
I surely can't count the ones I interacted closely with over my 25 years in China living in various cities, and 17 years here being involved in Chinese schools and Chinese Associations, because guess what I haven't done those 2000 math problems (someone already countered that). It is now confirmed that you think Chua a liar, then I see no point for arguing what so ever. Why would Chua be so concerned about the backslash? Where is the backslash? How many will be statistically significant at 5% level? Those countless happy kids wouldn't even bother posting comments.
My sample? Small? What bias? For you to have brushed aside first my observation from her daughters, then my countless observation, I regret for having inferred your intention as being serious. That Shanghai is ranked number 1 in academic achievement and the US is nowhere near is evidence? Oh bias you'd say again. If this book has come out at a time where the US is so confident about it's superior education system, would it still have stirred so much, I say again, defensiveness? One comment said it so well, the nation of useless youth is a testimony of how superior the US is. But again, you will say "where is the evidence?"
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997912 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997912
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 17:22:15 GMT
Chunyan Li wrote "My son's point is exactly what you've exhibited, not willing to see the sacarsm, and ..." Seems to me that there was a study done a few years ago that showed suicide rates of children in Asian countries were much higher than in Western countries for this exact reason. TOO much pressure on kids who crumbled under it. Frankly, this lady was out of control with her parenting, and the fact that her abusive practices now make her feel 'entitled' to say that 'Chinese mothers are superior' (and apparently make HER feel superior to just about everyone out there EXCEPT her own culture) AND she teaches at one of our top universities explains why we have so many hard-hearted people trying to force the everyday person in this country to live under THEIR idea of what life should be like. I am more and more afraid for this country. Honey, you need help! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997886 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997886
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 17:16:24 GMT
Gee Simone wrote "Seems to me that there was a study done a few years ago that showed suicide rates of ..." Well I am going to guess that Amy and Jed, being the smart Harvard educated lawyers they are, have taken to playing the bad parent and good parent routine so well, that it is going to make this latest publication be a runaway best seller and make them even richer than they are now!
Just don't see this at all from all the family pictures that are out there on the net that this lady is anything but a shrewd lawyer/business person who has done really well for herself and thanks to all this global attention, wil even become more so.
SHE IS LAUGHING ALL THE WAY TO THE BANK ALONG WITH HER KIDS (NEW TRUST ACCOUNTS!!).
Shame that we see a hell of a lot of BS politics and racism pop out of this great marketing scheme!
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997877 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997877
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 17:14:23 GMT
John Huang wrote "Well I am going to guess that Amy and Jed, being the smart Harvard ..." Study has indicated that most non-Asian Americans do not generally differentiate between Asian Americans and Chinese Americans. Stereotypes of both groups are nearly identical. A 2002 survey of Americans' attitudes toward Asian Americans and Chinese Americans indicated that 24% of the respondents disapprove of intermarriage with an Asian American, second only to African Americans; 23% would be uncomfortable supporting an Asian-American presidential candidate, compared to 15% for an African American, 14% for a woman and 11% for a Jew; 17% would be upset if a substantial number of Asian Americans moved into their neighborhood; 25% had somewhat or very negative attitude toward Chinese Americans in general. The study did find several positive perceptions of Chinese Americans: strong family values (91%); honesty as business people (77%); high value on education (67%).
There is a widespread perception that Asian Americans are not "American" but are instead "perpetual foreigners". Asian Americans often report being asked the question, "Where are you really from?" by other Americans, regardless of how long they or their ancestors have lived in United States. Many Asian Americans are themselves not immigrants but rather born in the United States. Many are asked if they are Chinese or Japanese, an assumption based on major groups of past immigrants. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997872 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997872
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 17:13:34 GMT
mary Chen wrote "Study has indicated that most non-Asian Americans do not generally differentiate ..." Excellent points, Mr. Nichols. And I'll add one for good measure.
While sitting on a school board in Vermont for a number of years, I started to closely watch members of my daughter's class, asking myself why does it appear that some children are (apparently) destined to be sucessful, whether going on to an Ivy League College, into the military . . . whatever.
One common thread ran thorugh all of their lives: They all graduated from high school with the same set of parents they had in the first grade. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997803 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997803
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 17:02:50 GMT
Blumenthal Richard wrote "Excellent points, Mr. Nichols. And I'll add one for good measure. While ..." I said suicide to go to the extreme. Although I think a healthy competitive educational system (and society) is definitely good and necessary to progress and keep pushing forward the human society... I do also believe that balance is needed. At some point, smart people stop and ask themselves... do I want to push myself to the limit for the sake of it? Is a material life what I want for my life? Or I can be happier by taking it more lightly and not getting depressed for not being an "A" my whole life?
One needs to balance... being an "A" will give you more opportunities, may be more fulfilling in some aspects... but it does NOT guarantee happiness.
Should all the society try to be "A"... knowing that that is statistically impossible? Should there not be some sort of comfort for the people who do not fit into the competitive world? Comfort.. and alternatives... that are just as good as being an "A". Let´s remember... an "A" doesn´t make a GOOD person (Sometimes, quite the opposite). Let´s remember, how many great inventors, statesmen, businessmen, great people in this world... were not A... nor B... not maybe even C.
As I said, I agree on pushing a bit... but I don´t think competition is only in the brains. Oh... by the way, someone should note... being a great engineer does not make you a great boss. And bosses, more and more, are not the most intelligent people in a company. They are simply the ones that could foster the smartest around him... and make them work for him. :)
Of course... I generalise. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997800 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997800
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 17:01:50 GMT
Pedro Abadia wrote "I said suicide to go to the extreme. Although I think a healthy competitive ..." SOM announces largest alumni gift to date
By Ilana Seager Staff Reporter
Thursday, January 7, 2010
Though the School of Management has yet to break ground on its new campus, the planned development will get a big financial boost from one SOM alumnus.
University President Richard Levin announced at a Jan. 4 conference in Beijing that Lei Zhang GRD '02 SOM '02 has pledged $8,888,888 to the SOM, primarily to aid the construction of the school's new campus. The gift — which will also provide support for an international relations scholarship and fund China-related activities at Yale — is the largest donation on record from a young University graduate and the largest gift the SOM has ever received from a graduate of the school.
"This truly extraordinary and auspicious gift reflects the deep commitment to Yale that Lei Zhang shares with so many fellow graduates of the School of Management," Levin said in his announcement, according to the Office of Public Affairs. "Lei’s generosity also represents a significant step toward the realization of SOM’s new campus."
Zhang explained in an e-mail Thursday afternoon that he hopes his gift to the SOM will serve to strengthen ties between the University and China. Historically, Zhang said, the relationship between China and Yale has been mostly one-way, with Yale usually serving as the benefactor. He said he anticipates that his $8,888,888 pledge will be the start of a more reciprocal relationship.
"I think this is simply the right thing to do at the right time," Zhang said.
SOM Dean Sharon Oster, who was also present for the announcement, said in an e-mail that the school is currently working with donors to match gifts with spaces on the new campus, planned for Whitney Avenue and Sachem Street. She said she believes the new auditorium there will carry Zhang's name.
"Part of my delight at this gift comes from knowing that our new building will have names that represent the diversity of men and women who have been part of the Yale community," she said.
Oster said Zhang, who was raised in central China, came to Yale from a modest background and with little experience in the financial world. At Yale, she said, Zhang found his vocation and now wants to give back to the SOM community — and prompt other graduates to do the same.
"One of Lei Zhang's explicit goals in making this gift public is to lead by example in his philanthropy," Oster said, adding, "I have found our Chinese alumni at SOM to be among our most generous."
In addition to his SOM degree, Zhang received a master's in international relations from Yale. He is the founder and managing partner of Hillhouse Capital Management, an investment fund named for Hillhouse Avenue, the street that runs through the current SOM campus.
According to the OPA, Zhang chose $8,888,888 as the value of his gift because the number eight is considered lucky in Chinese culture. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997796 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997796
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 17:00:45 GMT
mary Chen wrote "SOM announces largest alumni gift to dateBy Ilana Seager Staff Reporter..." Asian Americans had the highest educational attainment level and median household income of any racial demographic in the country, and the highest median personal income overall - that means paying higher taxes to this country. The taxes go to:
Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, interest on the national debt, combat operations, military personnel, veterans benefits, federal highways, heal care research, education funding, military retirement benefits, environmental cleanup, FBI, ... ... ... ...
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997769 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997769
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 16:54:01 GMT
mary Chen wrote "Asian Americans had the highest educational attainment level and median household income of ..." They really should let you know when you are over the text limit:
"I understand the hurdle they face being stereotypically...People have used the same argument 50 years ago to deter Jewish kids from going into Ivy Leagues. "
I'm sure I don't know what people did 50 years ago but I'm sure bad things have been done to people of Jewish decent. However I don't see how this is germane to the point.
"I dare conjecture, that when people start to use slumber parties to argue for failed grades and leadership learned, college admissions will have to put a requirement on that. (joke)"
Yes I agree that would be funny but it would also illustrate a problem with academic scores. They are fast becoming a distinction without a difference.
"Back to the excerpt, you read supremacy, I read self mocking."
To me 'supremacy' implies being the best whereas I've just said that Ms. Chua thinks her way is better than the standard.
All I did was note that Ms Chua's "style", involved a significant amount of work over the norm, involved a significant amount of work over her perception of the norm, and was aware that people disapproved of her way of doing things but did nothing (at least until now) to change that. The inescapable conclusion is that for a time anyway Ms. Chua either believed that her way of doing things was clearly better or it was not. If the later then she admits her extra work was irrational. I think the more likely conclusion is that - at least for a time she considered her method clearly superior. She may now have changed her mind but it's difficult to tell.
"I can also use myself and my siblings as counter examples"
I'll just stop you there for a sec. Anecdotes only counter absolute arguments. I don't really see anyone arguing that. I'm sure not.
"So you do read Gladwell."
Grudgingly - someone gave me blink and I read it's salient points and returned it to the bookstore. I'm sure he's an entertaining writer for some but one has to ask oneself is this any more educational than watching "Lost". Sure it's watercooler talk but so is "Lost".
"but I do believe the argument on Chinese syllable and math prowess."
IIRC his argument was about notation. Syllables make less sense since the 11-19 are equal or greater in syllables in Japanese when compared to English. Jun-I-chi and El-ev-en and what little data there is in international performance doesn't show much difference between Japan and various parts of China.
Notationally Gladwell is also probably wrong. Example? Quick! Without further resort to converting to Arabic numerals calculate the fraction 22/7 to a tolerance of 1/100000. I guarantee that in Arabic numerals I beat the fastest person using Chinese numbers with Chinese ordering. While not conclusive it's also interesting where Arabic numerals replaced Chinese ones. Did you ever learn HK market numbers? They're pretty much gone now and while they have a unicode mapping I'm pretty sure that there's no Cangjie method to use them. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997756 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997756
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 16:50:52 GMT
Kim Eagles wrote "They really should let you know when you are over the text limit:..." My point isn't that Mozart didn't believe in hard work - he and his parents absolutely did, nor that Gates had an intense interest and pursued computer language. The point is that the parents didn't blindly drive them to be straight "A" students. Their parents took into account what interested the child had and fed their curiosity, encourage the child's pursuit as well as having very high expectations. These parents did not make blanket statements like Chua's, oh have blanket expectations like hers.
Yes, intellectual curiosity is different than creativity, but I would argue that it's tough to create anything in a vacuum void of curiosity. The parents I refer to encouraged and expected their children to explore and create. I can't be sure that any of them had sleepovers to accomplish this. I wouldn't think so either.
I get it that Chua didn't write a parenting book but I gather she has plenty of criticism as do I. I also take nothing away from her or her children's accomplishments, but she certainly doesn't have the answers I seek either. The people I looked into made huge contributions to society and most didn't have a task master parent (figuratively or literally) whipping them to get straight "A"s in school. That doesn't mean that I want neurosurgeon working on me that was a "D" or even a "B" student, either.
Regarding recognizing Einstein's intellect, or any parent recognizing any type of child prodigy and then just kicking back - Einstein worked hard, very hard, and his parents encouraged him with challenges as well as their house guests in his early years. But he was not an "A" student, he wasn't even a good student at times, that is my point. And I do not recommend being "laid back" I believe a parent should encourage children with stimulating challenges and have high expectation for their kids or they may lose interest, lose momentum, lose period.
Chua is right, to a point but I think she has or had her priorities upside-down or sideways.
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Thu, 20 Jan 2011 16:46:12 GMT
James Nichol wrote "My point isn't that Mozart didn't believe in hard work - he and his ..." Well, Mr. Miser was just trying to prove his creativity, intelligence and logical reasoning by connecting an America-born-and-raised Amrican mother who has Philipino Chinese parents to the 1.3 billion Chinese people living in mainland of China.
It's such a creative thoughts! What's wrong with that?!
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Thu, 20 Jan 2011 16:43:06 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Well, Mr. Miser was just trying to prove his creativity, intelligence and logical ..." Is this serious? I was reading the article waiting for some assurance that this is a joke, or some psychology experiment. I pity her and her children's misspent youth. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997705 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997705
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 16:42:23 GMT
Matthew Doherty wrote "Is this serious? I was reading the article waiting for some assurance that this is a joke, or some psychology ..." Actually according to this article suicide rates in mainland China are greatest among poor and uneducated women:
One study found that a high percentage of women who attempt suicide have an average of only five years of schooling and live in households with a median income of only $13 a month. Most said they were unhappily married and, 42 percent said they had money problems and 38 percent said their husbands beat them.
Here is the link:
http://factsanddetails.com/china.php?itemid=155&catid=11&subcatid=70#11 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997676 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997676
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 16:38:09 GMT
Kasa Bulba wrote "Actually according to this article suicide rates in mainland China are greatest among poor and ..." Glenn, while I congratulate you on your daughter's early achievement, I do think you have double standards when it some to parenting. The things you did to your daughter (taking away computer, cell phone, and favorite clothes for a teen, etc) including threatening to give her away to Child and Family service have not much difference than Amy Chua. Actually some libral-minded people may consider worse. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997655 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997655
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 16:33:46 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Glenn, while I congratulate you on your daughter's early achievement, I ..." "Kim, now I see where you are from. Then please read the q&A or the book in it's entirety."
I did read the Q&A and it's still a question of logic. Clearly she did believe that at one time that her choice was superior and while she claims that she does not hold that now she doesn't really define what that means. i.e. She still insists on academic excellence. Does that mean being infantile about a potentially meaningless distinction between a B and an A? Does that mean doing 2000 math problems when you score less than a Korean kid? She also is deceptive about a few things. As I've stated before a memoir does not excuse a text from being a guide. Some of her statements about family endorsement are likely exaggerated.
"I'd like to give her the benefit of the doubt, and trust that she is not claiming any supremacy."
Look people lie, regularly especially under public social pressure. In Japan there is a whole institutionalized system of lying - it's accepted and completely mysterious to westerners. So I don't really believe in the 'benefit of the doubt' I just believe in probability. Right now, yes there is a seemingly huge amount of backlash on the WSJ article and unsurprisingly Ms. Chua is trying to distance herself from it.
"Even my 12 year old son thought this article was part satire."
So? My hamster differs? Point? :-)
"pull out some slumber party argument is really beyond my imagination"
I agree it's not a very well supported argument but the idea that social interaction teaches things to people that can not be done by rote is hardly unreasonable.
"Yes Leon's point is directly addressing Brooks, not any other comment."
I don't really see how. It's a non-sequitor. It doesn't negate Brooks argument unless he was arguing for children to "know nothing".
'And I agree with the point "This is what's wrong with the American education system."'
What and how? That Americans allow for slumber parties or value other kinds of social interaction? I think it's important to know a few other things before making pronouncements like that. For example what are the objective metrics? is the difference statistically significant? are the variances of the metrics similar and therefore comparable.
There have been multiple waves of education reform in the US and abroad each one tried to address various perceived threats often without validating their existence. At least one was responding to the same 'threat' people seem to be talking about here.
" but it is not related to her point in the excerpt--raising stereotypically successful children by the strict method."
Sure it is, if you infer the rather obvious idea that Brooks considers these things learned in social settings as important or more important than academics.
"And, at one point, you said Brooks is arguing against Chua's "implication," while later on immediately say to ignore her intent."
A logical implication of her statements and actions as opposed to her *stated* intent.
"This book is a memior, not a parenting guide"
As I have said they are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
"The debate was generated by defensive people on both sides"
Oh hey, you got elected to the council of "I-get-to-say-what-everyone's-motive-is" I hear that's a nice job. Let's confine ourselves to talking about the things we know ok?
"so what's wrong with promoting the middle way?"
Because it's kind of arbitrary. Two different extremes produce a different middle.
"I'd find it hard to believe Brooks does not promote the middle way, but only argues for slumber party."
Who cares? I just said one idea of Brooks was plausible.
"Brooks' intent is more presumptuous, he said it is "more intellectually challenging", hence the wimp title. Come on, do people really believe that? Even you didn't quote Brooks this way."
Clearly *you* don't. I like to take a position of evidence but the point is probably not worth arguing since it probably difficult to define the term 'intellectually challenging'
"I am not using Chua's daughters. I am using the countless Chinese American children among whom I live"
Actually 'countless'; should probably be reserved for things you actually can't count. The number of people that you know who you have a sufficient relationship to determine their parenting style and if there's a problem with their social development is probably countable...easily...unless you're mocking your own ability to count. :-)
Anyway that's nice I'm sure you're fully qualified to determine socialization but your sample is still biased by selection, confirmation and small size.
'I understand the hurdle they face being stereotypically labeled "socially awkward, no creativity, no leader... http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997615 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997615
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 16:27:05 GMT
Kim Eagles wrote ""Kim, now I see where you are from. Then please read the ..." Come one Rachel! How many Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Michael Dell we got here in America? Western parenting encourages individualism and uniqueness which do have positive effect on the students' creativity, but still not every one in America can become Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Michael Dell.
Meantime, Chinese parenting stresses perseverance and hard working, but still not every student becomes robot or social retaarrd without creativity. In last 40 years, there are quite a few Chinese Nobel Prize winners. Charles Wang founded Computer Associates, Jerry Yang founded Yahoo, Steve Chen founded Youtube, Yanhong Li founded Baidu. They all made outstanding contributions to the society.
Success = Wisdom + Hard-working + Opportunity. That is universal with no exception. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997574 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997574
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 16:20:42 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Come one Rachel! How many Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Michael ..." All I can say is I am sick to my stomach. What a Godless way of raising children. What a shallow, lifeless focus. If all that matters in this life is what you "achieve" then you are truly living on only the most base level of consciousness, and I feel sorry for you.
We are created for so much more in this life, and to be a slave to what the World says is important is nothing more than a prison. Wouldn't wish that on anyone. No wonder China struggles with the idea of PERSONAL FREEDOM!!!
Give me a giant break, the woman who did this is a pathetic excuse of a Mother... http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997558 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997558
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 16:18:34 GMT
dave oss wrote "All I can say is I am sick to my stomach. What a ..." Chinese parenting, western parenting, Jewish parenting, these may be stereotyped by the nationality or ethnicity of the parent, but parenting evokes instinct. Good parents instinctively employ whatever methods they have at their disposal to elicit behaviors of which they believe their children capable. Now, our children, as Hanna Rosin notes, may or may not have the capabilities we hope. Americans are such glorious mutts, we can't always tell what the heck we've got. Being myself Abie's Irish Rose, Bernie's Bridget, I've noted over the years that my children's father and I have lots of different gears turning, and it's a pleasure when I recognize some of mine, some of his, in our children. Then there are the gears I never imagined they had, or that they could get turning, with or without my help. And I must admit, after thirty years together, that I feel as though my people crawled up out of the water a lot more recently than his. I think of the effect 5000 years of culture and civilization may have on a child and its parent, especially one whose people have practiced eugenics. A friend of mine on the faculty of the University of Sydney, and her two brothers, as little children, were frequently abandoned in their home in China for weeks and months at a time. Their parents, both intellectuals, must perforce suddenly flee a persecution coming their way, with no time or resources to allocate to children. To their credit, her parents always returned. She says, since having her own child, she understands how they survived that period because she feels that she herself lacks the maternal instinct of the furry mammal. Still, her daughter, an adult Aussie in NYC, seems emotionally balanced, an accomplished beauty, and, as Eddie Huang brags, a "money gettin' chinkstronaut". Clearly, she got her daughter what she needed. Emotionally bonded ? Who can say ? Sometimes cultural expectation will substitute. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997466 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997466
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 16:00:20 GMT
Judith Lomas wrote "Chinese parenting, western parenting, Jewish parenting, these may be stereotyped by the nationality or ethnicity of the ..." Are you sure about Mozart? I thought he had much harsher training. And what about Edison's moto:"1% talent but 99% sweat?" Bill Gates had 10000 hours of programming under his belt long before anyone else has heard of the term computer. These were what I remember the most, not my moms' dotting praises at all. And are you sure Chua is raising her daughters to be any of the 127? Her book is a momior, not a parenting guide, and I think what you are debunking may end up being just as misleading. How do you measure the parents' interests in intellectual curiosity versus grades? How do you know Chua, being a Yale professor and leader of Yale's Law Review, is not as interested in intellectual curiosity? Intellectual curiosity is different from creativity. Being logical falls into the category of intellectually curious, isn't it? Granted, if I know of my own children to have the superior intellect as Einstein, I would be really laid back, but I know my children are not. What am I supposed to do? Let them go to slumber parties for inspiration? Your recommendation is to show your children the list of 127 from history, of those who achieved greatness despite ADDs, could you then tell us the odds of today's children becoming anyone as on your list? I do agree with debunking the self esteem myth. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997442 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997442
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 15:56:19 GMT
Chunyan Li wrote "Are you sure about Mozart? I thought he had much harsher ..." Thank you for enlightening America, and thank you for appreciating your parents who in the end, always want the BEST for their kids...what is it they say, "no pain, no gain". Hard word does translate to good things, we need more of your kind then the type of kids that are plugged in, and tuned out of the world with their multi-tasking on their media platforms. American teens look up to no-talent celebrities like the Kardashians. and The Jersey Shore. Believe me, you didn't miss out on these conversations. Our culture advocates this and it's becoming apparent that if they don't wake up, other countries will bypass us in excellence. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997426 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997426
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 15:52:52 GMT
Su woo wrote "Thank you for enlightening America, and thank you for appreciating your parents who in the ..." The author is an idiot. The story is sad. That's about the most effort this article justifies. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997384 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997384
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 15:45:17 GMT
Michael Zuckerman wrote "The author is an idiot. The story is sad. That's about the most effort this article justifies." Same comments as all the other ignorant comments made here. You need think for yourself and contribute some originals thoughts here. Don't just insult ALL Chinese.
BTW, Amy Chua is an American of Chinese heritage and her children are Americans of half Chinese heritage. Do some research first and stick to the topic of parenting.
FYI, degrading ALL Chinese will ultimately hurt yourself since in your previous post, you stated that you are a Chinese who is living in Malaysia.
I am a Chinese mother and I disagree with Amy Chua wholeheartedly. To be able to do what Amy Chua did to LULU(deprive her water, food and bathroom) requires a certain kind of personality. you can't make that kind of statement to condemn all Chinese women unless you believe that all Chinese women have the exact same personality, http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997341 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997341
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 15:37:45 GMT
Diane Chen wrote "Same comments as all the other ignorant comments made here. You need ..." please educate yourself: CHINA & INDIA accounts for 50% of the world population so even though the percentage sounds large, it also has a larger population. Incidentally, Belarus has the highest rate of suicide per 100,000 people with South Korea coming in 2nd. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997307 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997307
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 15:30:48 GMT
Su woo wrote "please educate yourself: CHINA & INDIA accounts for 50% of the world population ..." Great article! We have a number of posts on China in our new blog that readers might enjoy!
www.precisiontradingsolutions.blogspot.com http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997260 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997260
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 15:21:39 GMT
Kevin Jordan wrote "Great article! We have a number of posts on China in our new blog that ..." Read the book "Outsider" by Gladwell and find out what unique opportunities Gates, Jobs or Dell had had, ironically, no one else in the world had. Do not live the Bill Gates myth until you find out more. He programmed 10000 hours, at a tome no one else have even heard about computers. Ever heard of An Wang computers? Jerry Yang? Baidu CEO? The fastest computer? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997179 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997179
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 15:07:24 GMT
Chunyan Li wrote "Read the book "Outsider" by Gladwell and find out what unique opportunities ..." The bottom line is the question of what is and what isn't the best thing to do for the future success and happiness of the child you and I are raising. I took a look at the childhoods of 127 highly successful people and how they were raised, what was the environment, attitudes of the parents and how much they contributed to society as young and mature adults. I researched people like Einstein, Mozart, Edison, Ford along with contemporaries like Oprah, Jack Welch, Bill Gates and Margret Thatcher and most of them had a very checkered academic career. Their parents were more interested in encouraging their children's intellectual curiosity, not their grades. These 127 children were also not raised in homes or learning environments that gave a wit about self-esteem either.
The proof is in the contribution they make, and as Ms Chua has indicated she has a hard time with the creative but she feels she has accomplished something so her self-esteem is in tact. I think we have fallen under the spell of many parenting myths and she is the embodiment of a few of them. If your interested enough to see some of the parenting myths I posted this before all this hubbub http://bestchildblog.org/the-7-most-dangerous-parenting-myths/
Chinese or Western, makes no difference. You can force a child to do just about anything if you willing to be their taskmaster and it happens in Western homes too. More often though I agree with her that, especially here in the US, we make the mistake of being overly concerned with building self-esteem and forget that competence comes first.
JD Nichol http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997174 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997174
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 15:06:19 GMT
James Nichol wrote "The bottom line is the question of what is and what isn't the best thing to do for the future ..." Is this a joke? Taking away computer, cell phone, and favorite clothes for a teen? That's much worse than Chua! Count how many times the word "punish" was used. Failing one's own parental duty and threaten to call Child and Family service? Asking her to make unfair decisions at a young age? No encouragement or input from parents? "Mean" would be a positive word then. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997155 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997155
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 15:02:11 GMT
Chunyan Li wrote "Is this a joke? Taking away computer, cell phone, and favorite clothes for a teen? That's much ..." When every aspect of your life is decided by your parents, you become perfect little workers for "The Man". Chinese Mothers may be raising good and obedient works for the Peoples Republic but not good Americans. So many Western parents don't teach their kids respect, discipline or even to think. That is what a kid needs plus the security of a parents love. My father and mother encouraged me to make my own choices and made sure I suffered or benefited from the consequences. China is a paper tiger and it will fall as it has always done in history. America will fall as well if we don't teach our kids discipline, respect and to think. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997140 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997140
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 14:59:57 GMT
Jacob Cook wrote "When every aspect of your life is decided by your parents, you become ..." TOTALLY INSULTING - is what Robert aims to be with is jibe about intelligence. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997122 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997122
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 14:55:52 GMT
Abslom Daak wrote "TOTALLY INSULTING - is what Robert aims to be with is jibe about intelligence." @Chunyan Li - No you niny. I used one or two anecdotes to suggest the possibility was not unreasonable. Please take some time to think before you post. Robert did not, in fact make any point as to what the "true intention" was of the woman. Because there is no such measurement. What people do is what people do, what people want is what people want it's silly to conflate them. Now if you happen to have some highly accurate measure for "intentions" please feel free to share.
I don't have much explanation for your summer holidays but perhaps to suggest that China is pretty big and it's possible to overlook things and that while there's self selection on the internet it may well be less so than the self-selection in regionalisms. I probably read 2000-5000 characters of Chinese a day on the internet and write about 400-500 characters. How about you? While that doesn't make me an expert in Chinese culture I do appear to spend more time talking to people in China in a year than you might in a few summers. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997111 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997111
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 14:54:12 GMT
Abslom Daak wrote "@Chunyan Li - No you niny. I used one or two anecdotes to suggest the ..." China is not a nation of robots. You are insulting the 1.3 billion. Why go there many times then. Read many rebuttals to these ignorant comments like yours before you post racial comments like these. It takes only 30 years for China to get this far, so far that it became the largest creditor of the US. The US is so creative that it creates the housing and financial bubbles, and that it needs China to finance its debt.
You don't need to feel sad for the children, feel sad for yourself and don't go to China. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997074 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1997074
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 14:46:59 GMT
Chunyan Li wrote "China is not a nation of robots. You are insulting the 1.3 billion. Why go there many ..." Kim, now I see where you are from. Then please read the q&A or the book in it's entirety. I'd like to give her the benefit of the doubt, and trust that she is not claiming any supremacy. Even my 12 year old son thought this article was part satire. As to why people became so defensive, and even, like Brooks, pull out some slumber party argument is really beyond my imagination. Yes Leon's point is directly addressing Brooks, not any other comment. And I agree with the point "This is what's wrong with the American education system." Of course there is something "learned" at slumber parties as some comments pointed out that drug dealers may be the most effective. but it is not related to her point in the excerpt--raising stereotypically successful children by the strict method. Regardless of her intent, she is right to the point. And, at one point, you said Brooks is arguing against Chua's "implication," while later on immediately say to ignore her intent. How convenient. This book is a memior, not a parenting guide. The debate was generated by defensive people on both sides, so what's wrong with promoting the middle way? I'd find it hard to believe Brooks does not promote the middle way, but only argues for slumber party. Brooks' intent is more presumptuous, he said it is "more intellectually challenging", hence the wimp title. Come on, do people really believe that? Even you didn't quote Brooks this way.
I am not using Chua's daughters. I am using the countless Chinese American children among whom I live. I understand the hurdle they face being stereotypically labeled "socially awkward, no creativity, no leadership." Granted there are the rare ones that no matter how much their mothers want them to go to slumber parties or force them to go to social events (I know some), they don't want to (they are labeled "nerds" even among the Chinese kids), I see no such general "handicap" at all. People have used the same argument 50 years ago to deter Jewish kids from going into Ivy Leagues. And if I dare conjecture, that when people start to use slumber parties to argue for failed grades and leadership learned, college admissions will have to put a requirement on that. (joke)
Back to the excerpt, you read supremacy, I read self mocking. To immigrant families, and Chinese immigrants in particular, it is not supremacy, it is a necessity (what I guess Chua got from her parents). It is not for the parent's pride, it is the parent's duty to raise self sufficient kids when faced with long held discrimination. The strict model also depends on the children. Chua's older daughter is easy, just like my older son, but it was the younger one, and who I guess more resembles Chua, that rebelled, again like my younger one who has a temper close to mine. I haven't read the book, yet from her interview, I knew what dealing with two dramatically different children was alike. In this sense, I don't give too much credit to parenting style, it is the children who bring up the parents.
I can also use myself and my siblings as counter examples. My parents raised my older brother and sister in an extremely strict way, but my siblings turned out to be much more filial, social, charming, and creative than I am. I was very spoiled as the youngest one (14 years apart), yet I turned out socially awkward, rebellious, overly confident yet fragile, and selfish, so selfish as to leaving old parents in China and pursuing my own American Dream here. I saw first hand the disadvantage of the "little kings" generation in China with 6 adults pampering one child. But guess that is irrelevant.
So you do read Gladwell. It is not the scientific rigor I like, but the psychological discussion (anecdotes if you like to call). How much I believe the rice patty on Chinese intellect? I don't know, but I do believe the argument on Chinese syllable and math prowess. I also believe the Chinese proverb he cited (I didn't know before) " No one who gets up before dawn 360 days in a year fails to make his family rich." (Change rich to any other term.) Thank you for your replies, which I thoroughly enjoy. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996935 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996935
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 14:15:29 GMT
Chunyan Li wrote "Kim, now I see where you are from. Then please read the q&A or the ..." If china has 1.3 billion people and almost all mums are 'tiger mums' then why do i not see a chinese Bill gates, steve jobs, michael dell???????all of which ironically fell out of universtiy
it doesnt take only brains to succeed, check my comment. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996760 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996760
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 13:29:24 GMT
Rachel Mah wrote "If china has 1.3 billion people and almost all mums are 'tiger mums' then ..." I am writing as a 'faulty tiger cub'.I am Chinese and I live in Malaysia. As a child in primary school ( thats the school kids go to when they're between 7-12), the subjects were quite easy, so I somehow managed to get top of the class quite a few times, and for the government exam, I scored all A's. And what reward did I get for all that hard work? I got 200 in malaysian currency to buy books(!). You could imagine how frustrated I was. Now i am 15 and i am still pressured to get AT LEAST top 10 in my class of 46 students. Mind you, i am in the top class of 9 classes, so it is NOT an easy feat.
Now i am averaging 25 in my class( which is pretty darn good).
Thank God my parents didnt force me to take up any musical instrument( if a person doesnt like to play it, then whats the use????). But now, they are restricting me from my favorite hobby: drawing, which is very frustrating cos' i spend like 3 hours a day on drawing and now i have to smuggle some time to draw. ( my Deviantart account can be reached here:http://williammah.deviantart.com/, hehe)
Now i will be sitting for another government exam and parents want me to get all A's, which is pretty impossible since I always get a B for Mandarin. ( I used to get C's, and when i improved to a B, my parents still asked for more)
I think that Amy Chua's method of parenting is very harsh, especialyt the no tv or computer rule.( I am going to a counterstrike competition next month, hehe).
To amy chua: i would rather die than be your kid!!!
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996746 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996746
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 13:24:11 GMT
Rachel Mah wrote "I am writing as a 'faulty tiger cub'.I am Chinese and I ..." If ever there was a monumental rationalization to justify one's own fear of failure, this is it! Except this is worse- vicarious fear! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996740 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996740
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 13:22:57 GMT
Martin Adickman wrote "If ever there was a monumental rationalization to justify one's own fear of failure, this is it! Except this is worse- ..." I hope it goes without saying that American's shouldn't feel threatened at all by this. In fact, what is revealed in the article is how far behind the Chinese are behind us. A quick anecdote about my own childrearing and how it turned out.
I was always "narrowly strict" with my daughter. What I mean by this is that I had few rules (you can jump on the bed all you want, but you'd better look me in the eye when we speak, for example) but if you break one of the rules, you get punished. I also told my daughter that when it came to deciding how to spend her own time, that was her choice. No instrument was forced on her - she tried, hated it and quit. Same with basketball after a few years. What I did tell her was that as long as she got reasonably good grades (B or better) and didn't get in trouble, that her life was her own.
At the age of 15, my daughter had fallen in with a bad crowd. Now divorced, my ex hid her various transgressions from me, but it all came to a head one night and I was summoned to the house. I simply punished her until she began listening again. Losing the computer and the cell phone were not enough, so I took away her favorite clothes and that got her attention. Once she was listening, I then told her that she should think about how she wanted her life to go and what the consequences of her behavior would be for her, not for me. I got her out of thinking of us as the enemy by telling her that no matter what she did, her mom and I would be fine. That we would simply punish her until she was 18 and then throw her out. And that if she didn't start doing what she was told, I would go to Child and Family Services the next morning to get a Person in Need of Supervision petition, because if we couldn't control her, that since I couldn't physically restrain her, I would use the court and police to do so.
And I meant it. She woke up, and within 6 weeks dropped the dirtbag boyfriend and some troublesome friends and started working on her life. She began to open up to me about the hypocrisy she observed in adults and how messed up the entire situation was in her high school. Much of what she observed was accurate and I told her so. I then asked her who she wanted to be in the face of the worlds awfulness? Did she want to give up to cynicism or try and stand for something good and righteous? And that it was her choice to do so.
When time for college came, she was a solid B minus student. I had another conversation with her about what going to college was all about, something that apparently nobody in her world had said to her. First, I told her that nobody was ever again in her life spend 150-200k on her so she could educate herself and that this was a tremendous privilege. I told her that her job was to go there and find out what she wanted to do with her life. I also told her that if she didn't maintain a 3.0, she could move home and go to community college. I did sympathize with her that it was unfair for her to have to make such a big decision at a young age but that she should set that aside because there was nothing she could do about it. I told her I would support any choice she made as long as it was somewhat sensible.
So of course some college advisor tells her to major in Communications. When she told me this, I told her it was a BS major and that when I interviewed someone who had majored in communications, I assumed they were lazy and partied her way through college and that I wasn't the only one who thought so. She didn't like this but continued to search. In her sophomore year, she found a field that she actually loved. Btw, I should add that after about 6 weeks in school, my daughter realized that she wanted to do well in university for her own purposes and to open as many doors to potential fields of study and made the deans list the first and every semester since. Not to please me or her Mom, but because she started to see how good performance was connected to good outcomes in her life.
When my daughter called me with the news that she had found a field she loved, called landscape architecture, I was so excited. She was barely able to contain herself and went on and on about. Fast forward to 3 + years later. She is graduating with honors in May, holds several positions of leadership in student organizations about landscape architecture. She's just started her third paid internship and has a job sealed up after graduation with the same firm. She's top in her program and is so ambitious and focused that on winter break, she took a 12 day intensive design/drawing course that packed a semester of work into the 12 hour days with no break. On her own, with no encouragement or input from her parents.
Why do I lay all this out? Because I believe the point of parenting is to get kids to be responsible and intentional about how they live their lives. I rarely had to be mean to make my point - but was so every once ... http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996715 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996715
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 13:13:37 GMT
Glenn Donovan wrote "I hope it goes without saying that American's shouldn't feel threatened at all by this. In ..." You know, my dad used to say those that dare to be different make an impact on the world (+ or -). Following a script to raising kids may give them an A+ for achievement, but sooner rather than later they will look like a carbon copy of everyone else. Where is the special personality growth that makes us human? Truth is, humans are attracted to flaws as well as accomplishments, the scale seems unbalanced here. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996661 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996661
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 12:53:31 GMT
CHRISTINE LEE wrote "You know, my dad used to say those that dare to be different make an ..." My mother is korean. Life sucked so much sometimes when I was in high school and couldn't wear make up , date, go to school dances etc- Thats what I wanted to be focused on when I was a child. Still, I loved academics, music- everything I did, my mother 100% supported me, pushed me- she supported me more than I liked at times making me practice my instruments hours on end. I only loved these things because I was forced to spend my summers indoors doing math homework and music camps. For awhile I thought she was just trying to live vicariously through me. Then, after I got accepted into one of the most prestigiuos universities in the country- I realized that everything she did for me had set me up for success. She demanded that I be successful, because she knew that later- when my focus was on bigger things then boys and pretty dresses- I would thank her. I wasn't a straight A student- but I worked really hard at every thing I did. And its mostly because if I didn't- my mom would go ballistic haha. So thanks to you, my wonderful korean mother- you kept me grounded and foced your focus on me when I didn't know better to do it myself. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996628 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996628
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 12:43:33 GMT
Erikka Johnson wrote "My mother is korean. Life sucked so much sometimes when I was in ..." I looked at the wikipedia article and "other comments" and Elric's comment of 30% is supported as follows: "Suicide in the People's Republic of China is unique[1] among countries of the world in that more women than men commit suicide each year: in 1999 the rate per 100,000 people was 13.0 for men and 14.8 for women,[1] the highest female suicide rate in the world. The male rate (13.0 per 100,000 men per year) is lower than in many other countries, including some Western countries, such as the United States, Australia and Germany. The total rate in China (13.9) is much lower than in the total rate in other East Asian countries: Japan (24.4) and Korea (21.9).
A 2008 study found that in China, female suicides outnumber male suicides by a 3:1 ratio; rural suicides outnumber urban suicides by a 3:1 ratio; a large upsurge of young adult and older adult suicides has occurred; a comparatively high national suicide rate two to three times the global average is evident; and a low rate of psychiatric illness, particularly clinical depression, exists in suicide victims.[2] There are over 300,000 suicides in China annually.[3] China accounts for more than 30% of the world's suicides.[4] The suicide rate in the Yangtze Basin is about 40% higher than in the rest of China.[5]"
I think there are interesting ideas in the article but the writer seems to go overboard to me. I agree that self esteem can come from becoming good at a skill or task but beating kids into performance does not necessarily create happiness. And after all is not happiness and life satisfaction ultimately more desireable than a certain job, skill or grade? On the other hand I do like the encouragement to help your kids work through the drudgery to become excellent, to persevere and having a parent who believes in them enough to work with them day after day. There is a reason we have a wonderful and rich country and how we raise our kids is part of that. I also think the freedom here helps develop the creative people who help us stay wealthy - like the folks inventing things in silicon valley. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996316 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996316
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 08:43:24 GMT
ROBERT DIAMOND wrote "I looked at the wikipedia article and "other comments" and Elric's comment of 30% is ..." Heh, that whole list is very accurate. I am a Chinese American male, and I will not be the first to say that trying to prevent an Asian kid from playing video games is virtually impossible. I recognize that I am very stereotypical, but she takes the cake. She is all those things plus she married a White guy. (I kid, I kid)
Everything else on that list is an affirmative, even though I didn't notice a couple of them until after reading this list. It wasn't anywhere close to being "hell", and making all A's wasn't hard even with 15 AP's. The forced violin competitions earned me a $20,000 Vuillaume, which I sold the first chance I got to bankroll my early bets. I just never got laid until I was 20 years old, which is pretty bad as were/are my skills in bed. I didn't go crazy or anything once I was free to do as I pleased, and catch something like those two ladies are probably going to do. However, I'd rather have caught AIDS and died, than have stumbled my way into a school play and picked up an interest in something completely useless like acting or singing like most of these kids do nowadays.
If that had happened, I'd probably be on YouTube right now making video blogs for .00004 cents per view instead of on Rediplus sending big bets to CME Clearport. But then again, we live in the United States of America. The uselessness of our youth is a testament to the greatness of this country. We look at ancient civilizations and see how baller they were by looking at their excess, their zero utility artifacts, jewelry, art etc remain to testify of their greatness. Only an incredibly wealthy and powerful nation could afford such a waste of time and capital investment. Millenniums later, future civilizations will know how great we were by all of our useless kids with b.a communications degrees and little to no earning power. (not like they will ever need any) http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996290 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996290
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 08:13:40 GMT
chuanlee lai wrote "Heh, that whole list is very accurate. I am a Chinese American male, and ..." Despite what the book says, this is a meaningful & interesting topic worth talking about. After all we have all noticed that the dragon is rising and catching up fast. To win the future competition, education is the key. It will benefit our children if we can learn something (if there's any which I believe yes) useful from other cultures or even rivals.
From another angle, American culture is a mix of different cultures from all over the world even though the major foundation is western. But I believe it's inevitable that the Eastern thoughts and cultures will be added into melting pot more and more in the future. History has proved America always makes itself better when we keep open-minded and be well prepared.
Watch this:
http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/glenn-beck/transcript/chinas-rise-americas-fall?page=1
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996228 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996228
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 07:20:15 GMT
John Mackay wrote "Despite what the book says, this is a meaningful & interesting topic worth talking ..." The topic is interesting. The book... I doubt it. If it´s in the same line as the article... you may end up reading stereotypes, having very biaised opinions and probably not having a very neat picture of what on earth the author wants to say... except "we are superior". :)
But hey... here we are writing things on her article... :D http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996221 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996221
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 07:12:24 GMT
Pedro Abadia wrote "The topic is interesting. The book... I doubt it. If it´s in the same line as the article... you may ..." I myself will definitely take the middle ground but no matter what we do, I think what the kids end up with is largely depending on the individual child. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996196 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996196
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 06:56:59 GMT
John Mackay wrote "I myself will definitely take the middle ground but no matter what we do, ..." 7000 comments and still climbing. And I don't see a copy of the book in my local Borders. What's up with that? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996188 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996188
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 06:53:23 GMT
PAUL JOHNSON wrote "7000 comments and still climbing. And I don't see a copy of the book in my ..." I hope we will not fall in the stupid game of "we invented this", "we were the first ones", etc, etc...
I hope that, whatever history you guys have been taught, we come to an agreement that powers come and go... and sometimes together with their inventions. Not much pride and having had... and have lost. Better let´s look at the future, and make our own deeds... after all, none of us (wherever we are from) were there when those "inventions" took place.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996158 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996158
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 06:34:56 GMT
Pedro Abadia wrote "I hope we will not fall in the stupid game of "we invented this", &..." Gee first time to hear about that. What's the source that data come from?
I have one for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
Suicides per 100,000 people per year, USA ranked 40 and China ranked 65. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996157 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996157
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 06:34:23 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Gee first time to hear about that. What's the source that data come from? ..." Sure you need to "know something" to contribute to a group, be creative in some particular field and presumably be a successful leader. But none of those are arguments against virtually anything that is being said by almost anyone here or there. That would require someone arguing that children should "know nothing".
This is really about parental strictness and alleged advantages of it. Brooks is at least addressing the particular point that Ms. Chua implies that certain activities detract from "education". Brooks believes that there are things that are learned at slumber parties etc... that are difficult to teach formally (or at least through the repetition of math problems). Which at least seems plausible.
You seem to be using the condition of Ms. Chuas daughters as some kind of counter-example. That seems presumptuous.
What Ms. Chua intended or at least says was her intent is again kind of a non-sequitor. I think it's irrational to read this excerpt and not believe that she doesn't consider her style of parenting superior. The fact or fiction of her intent is beside the point.
Gladwell comes up with some cute ideas but doesn't really seem to know what to do with them and kind of just writes as if they were true. Blink was an especially atrocious book if there was an intellectual non-award Gladwell should get it for that. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996152 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996152
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 06:31:21 GMT
Kim Eagles wrote "Sure you need to "know something" to contribute to a group, be creative in some ..." 60million Chinese (give or take)... is the number of people that were executed during Mao´s times according to credited sources... Surely that is a very Confucian action.
And the guys in power now in China belong to the same Party than Mao´s. And it´s the same that crushed the revolt in Tiananmen (Sorry if not spelled correctly).
My point here is that "bigger community" can come at a very high cost for "small individuals".
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996143 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996143
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 06:28:33 GMT
Pedro Abadia wrote "60million Chinese (give or take)... is the number of people that were executed during Mao´s ..." This surely shows the strict Chinese parenting didn't hurt self confidence, as so many self righteous people have claimed. Now even having confidence is a sin? Good insight Ernest, and I hope my sons will grow up like you-- have the conscience and competence to excel and contribute to the world (my son's sentence). http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996137 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996137
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 06:24:35 GMT
Chunyan Li wrote "This surely shows the strict Chinese parenting didn't hurt self confidence, as so ..." Gee you wonder why China accounts for 30% of the world suicides? Failure is not an option. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996135 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996135
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 06:24:30 GMT
Elric Martinez wrote "Gee you wonder why China accounts for 30% of the world suicides? Failure is not an ..." Oh yeah don't people have better example than Bill Gates? Go figure the odds of raising such a Harvard drop out--having a partner dad, a mom whose club funded the only high school computer lab in the world. Most moms will not have such unrealistic dreams. Well, it is America, it is Hollywood, just dream on. Sounds like the song in Pretty Woman. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996125 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996125
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 06:19:28 GMT
Chunyan Li wrote "Oh yeah don't people have better example than Bill Gates? ..." Very true.
Obsession to be the number 1 in all what you do (funny she excluded drama and gym) is ok for a certain type of personality. If all the gang wants to be nb 1... n-1 is going to be frustrated. Not sure that´s the path forward... :D http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996113 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996113
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 06:14:52 GMT
Pedro Abadia wrote "Very true.Obsession to be the number 1 in all what you do (funny ..." You illustrated very clearly why your mom pushed you hard-- you are competing against the many Chinese, not the very few caucasians. It is so sad that you don't understand your own mom's true intent, it is not for her to be proud, but for you to have a better future, and in her eyes, she did the most she knew how. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996104 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996104
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 06:11:29 GMT
Chunyan Li wrote "You illustrated very clearly why your mom pushed you hard-- ..." Wow, what academic rigor! Chua is the leader in Yale Law Review. This book is a memoir. Perhaps I am ignorant, but isn't memoir by definition anecdotal? A memoir will definitely count toward academic publication. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996093 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996093
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 06:04:35 GMT
Chunyan Li wrote "Wow, what academic rigor! Chua is the leader in Yale Law Review. This book is a ..." I think the article is terribly biaised.
It´s nice to think that all kids from "Chinese mothers" (as she likes to generalise, despite the explanation... she clearly overuses and overgeneralises) are A´s. But she offers little proof... and so far... Gauss Bell has proven to be strikingly common across the globe. IF there are a majority of A´s, then it´s time to raise the standards.
I think it´s undeniable that perseverance, discipline and method yield test results. Happiness? Well... how many genius would have exchanged their childhood of extreme effort for a more regular one? Afterwards... how many genius are actually happier than their not-so-brilliant counterparts?
But as the author points out... this is not about their children´s happiness... but about the belief that the better prepared they are (competitive and self-assured workers), the better future they will have. Happiness should come with that, shoudln´t it? What about those who don´t get there? (suicide rates?).
I do abide for more caring approach to education (more discipline, more challenge), but I think the generalisations of the 2 models exposed are out of touch with the reality.
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Thu, 20 Jan 2011 06:02:21 GMT
Pedro Abadia wrote "I think the article is terribly biaised.It´s nice to think that all kids from &..." I had two Chinese roommates in college, and I wouldn't being going to great lengths by saying that they despised their way of life before they came to America. Forced to spend countless hours slaving over math assignments--sacrificing their childhood. I'm fearful of the generation of only children that will become the leaders of tomorrow. To assume all Chinese students are fit for an instrument and textbook is to waste potential. I understand her article, but I feel as though it is misdirected. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996086 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996086
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 06:01:01 GMT
Catherine Dehn wrote "I had two Chinese roommates in college, and I wouldn't being going to ..." I hesitate in posting a letter my 12 year old son secretly left in my drawer, precisely because of what the "Toms" below would say. But I don't post for the Toms, I am posting it to all the wonderful Chinese moms who have done the best they know how in raising happy, creative, social and successful kids. With permission from the my tiger cub (born in the year of the Tiger).
Dear Mom,
When I was practicing violin, I caught a glimpse of my hands on the window. They are huge, glove-size hands compared to when I was little. My vocabulary is improving, and I feel more mature and dependable. I am ready to enter the world.
But I don't want to.
Sure, I look forward to things like driving, playing on the high- school sports team, hanging out with a girl friend, but right now, lying on my bed in a clustered room littered with clothing--I realize that this is life as I know it.
The hours you and Arnold were gone I was so, very lonely. It seems like the two of you have an aura of essence that follows you wherever you go. Arnold's aura is, of course, his constant yapping, his exaggerated (I can never spell it right) complaints, and laughing. Your aura is definitely that sweet, radiant smile that never fails to lift my spirits. You don't know how much I appreciate it, even when you merely lift the corners of your mouth; it's a smile.
I don't know what I'll do without these two haloes of light filling the house.
I was also amazed at your evolutionized aloofness in our sports and violin. I don't think aloofness is the right word, but this is my interpretation: you still care, but know that Arnold and I are not trying to impress you. Instead of seeing us as your sons, you sit back, relax, and enjoy a performance.
Mom, I want you to know that your evolution is awesome.
My wife is going to be just like you, strict but caring, critical but forgiving, not only a mother, but also a best friend.
I will tell my kids about you and visit you very often. I'll have discussions with my kids like you did with me. (By the way, I really appreciated those talks.)
It may be a worn-out saying, but you are the best mother in the world.
With lots of love,
Austin
1/16/2011
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Thu, 20 Jan 2011 05:44:03 GMT
Chunyan Li wrote "I hesitate in posting a letter my 12 year old son secretly ..." I am an Korean immigrant. I was the victim of this kind of upbringing. There are neither right nor wrong in ways parents raise their children as long as parents have confidence and love for their children. It is case by case.
Not every child is born with talent and enduance. Mrs Chua is lucky enough to have children who could overcome those harsh rules and punishments. Her story is somewhat ethnocentric. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996041 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996041
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 05:32:03 GMT
Yoon Park wrote "I am an Korean immigrant. I was the victim of this kind of upbringing. There are neither right ..." OMG Abslom, you used one or two anecdotes to assume the EAGERNESS of Chinese women! How logical to ignore Robert's point at the end about the lady's true intention. Being actually married to a Chinese man is the ultimate testimony to how EAGER one is in choosing their husbands. Having lived in China and spent the past 8 summers there, I don't see where your repetitive points were from. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996038 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996038
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 05:31:07 GMT
Chunyan Li wrote "OMG Abslom, you used one or two anecdotes to assume the EAGERNESS of Chinese ..." There has been much self-righteous outrage on both sides, with those in Chua's camp taking satisfaction in berating self-indulgent, laid-back American parents and their supposedly lazy kids, and those on the opposite side defending a more lenient, permissive style that stresses individuality. They forget one thing: Chua wouldn't have a book if she didn't argue an extreme, and then give it a nice tidy label like 'Chinese parenting'. The timing of the piece, coming on the eve of a state visit by China's president, is a bit suspect, because everyone is now worrying about how we're falling behind China. Perfect publicity for a parenting style billed as Chinese, but is more about being Amy Chua, which is simply an extreme of the way so many upper-middle class white parents raise their kids: paying huge sums for tutors, SAT coaches and test prep services. In other words: she has nothing new to add.
In fact, she does a disservice to Asian parents (though I don't claim to speak for them) because much of what she'd done for (to?) her kids would not seem recognizable to them. I grew up in a pretty diverse LA suburb, and there were plenty of Asian kids in Little League games, parties, and sleepovers I attended. Those activities didn't seem to hamper their later success, and probably enhanced it, as it did for all of us. Much of what she does emphasize seems to be a respect for diligence and perserverence, which does seem to be something that Asian parents emphasize more and I think that's refreshing. Maybe we've lost a bit of that and need to regain it.
In fact, it's a little refreshing: the idea that everyone can be excellent. All too often, kids give up before they've really tried, and teachers and parents ascribe it to ability. Now that is a shame. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996024 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996024
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 05:24:11 GMT
jack boucher wrote "There has been much self-righteous outrage on both sides, with those in Chua's ..." There has been much self-righteous outrage on both sides, with those in Chua's camp taking satisfaction in berating self-indulgent, laid-back American parents and their supposedly lazy kids, and those on the opposite side defending a more lenient, permissive style that stresses individuality. They forget one thing: Chua wouldn't have a book if she didn't argue an extreme, and then give it a nice tidy label like 'Chinese parenting'. The timing of the piece, coming on the eve of a state visit by China's president, is a bit suspect, because everyone is now worrying about how we're falling behind China. Perfect publicity for a parenting style billed as Chinese, but is more about being Amy Chua, which is simply an extreme of the way so many upper-middle class white parents raise their kids: paying huge sums for tutors, SAT coaches and test prep services. In other words: she has nothing new to add.
In fact, she does a disservice to Asian parents (though I don't claim to speak for them) because much of what she'd done for (to?) her kids would not seem recognizable to them. I grew up in a pretty diverse LA suburb, and there were plenty of Asian kids in Little League games, parties, and sleepovers I attended. Those activities didn't seem to hamper their later success, and probably enhanced it, as it did for all of us. Much of what she does emphasize seems to be a respect for diligence and perserverence, which does seem to be something that Asian parents emphasize more and I think that's refreshing. Maybe we've lost a bit of that and need to regain it.
In fact, it's a little refreshing: the idea that everyone can be excellent. All too often, kids give up before they've really tried, and teachers and parents ascribe it to ability. Now that is a shame. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996021 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996021
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 05:23:53 GMT
jack boucher wrote "There has been much self-righteous outrage on both sides, with those in Chua's ..." Take it easy.
The whole thing will boil over in a few weeks and we probably will never debate over Amy Chua again. But she'll have to live with what she put her girls through for the rest of their lives, including the publication of her books, articles and interviews. If everything turns out fine, they'll all become very successfully multi-millionaires with smiles on their faces 24/7, if not, they'll forever be known as the Chua case study.
The best way to not support Amy Chua's action, in my opinion, is to not buy her book(s). Not only is it the best way to discourage her from publishing books like this again, it'll also make sure your blood pressure won't go over the safe limit.
Just let it go. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996016 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996016
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 05:22:38 GMT
Chris Doe wrote "Take it easy. The whole thing will boil over in a few weeks and we probably will ..." Kim, from what I understand, Leon means one has to know something first to (1) be creative, (2) be efficient in a group, (3) be a leader. I also agree with Loen that Brooks changed the topic. Chua is not discussing social activity or group dynamics, nor the Chinese education system. Chua's daughters apparently have no social "handicap". If you read the q&A at Yale daily news, she wrote the book at a moment of crisis, not to boast one "parenting style" over the other (again, not education system). Thank you for your response. I do read Gladwell too. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996006 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1996006
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 05:18:20 GMT
Chunyan Li wrote "Kim, from what I understand, Leon means one has to know ..." As a Chinese-American teenager, I have experienced some of the many things that Amy Chua has written about. Although my parents are definitely not as strict as Ms. Chua was to her children, I do miss out on many things that my American peers enjoy; I don't play/am not allowed to play video games, I have neither been in the school play or joined any sports team, my grades are supposed to be stellar, and etc. I do play both the cello and piano, and am an avid member of the Model U.N. team. Although I often feel left out of conversations discussing the coolest video games or the newest movies, I have begun to realize that perhaps, it might all be worth it in the end. Now, before everyone accuses me of having been brainwashed by parents, I must say that they have done no such thing. My parents are strict, and they are Asian, but they are loving and caring as well. They are neither the demons or devils so many of you characterize Asian parents as. As I slowly grow from a teenager to a young adult, I have begun to realize how important the lessons of discipline and hard-work are. Just this morning, I was playing a Chopin Ballade in my school, and the many compliments I got after I finished really just made my day; they also made me feel that perhaps, all this hard work was worth it in the end. I now realize that every second I have spent at the piano for the past few years was worth it.
Ms. Chua, although many of her actions do seem extreme to the general public, myself included, I can understand why she chose to do some of the things she did. Believe it or not guys, Ms. Chua really did want the best for her children, which is why she made them "suffer" through so many long hours of striving for perfection in both their academic and musical endeavors. And as we can see, the ends do justify the means. Not only do her kids have a good relationship with their mother, they are now also on their way to becoming amazing professionals in their respective fields of work.
Unfortunately in America, the culture now has become so laid back that many parents no longer care about how they're kids are performing in school and what they do as extracurricular activities. There is a reason why our American children lag so far behind compared to other countries; obviously, this is due to the fact that many of our kids are like addicts, addicted to their phone, facebook, the internet, their computer, and tv. My wish is that in the near future, many of us will wake up from this dream and realize that we need to sort out our priorities to ensure that our kids do have better futures; this must begin with school books and meaningful extracurricular activities, not the TV or computer. Perhaps then, when we look back at this article, we will realize that maybe Ms. Chua's actions were neither cruel nor extreme, and in fact were for the best interests of her kids. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995969 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995969
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 05:03:04 GMT
Jonathan Lau wrote "As a Chinese-American teenager, I have experienced some of the many things that Amy ..." What a "compassionate" rebuttal! It is only the political turmoil that slowed down the invention rate of the Chinese civilization, without which you will still be living in the dark, and without whose cheap products you use every day, you probably wouldn't be sitting here lamenting. Talk about those beef produced in the US, and the chickens stuffed in a factory, and the pigs that kill each other, and the turkeys that can never walk! All because of western invention of factory farming.
You apparently have not lived in Tibet, or know it's serfdom. DO some research on how cruel that is before you utter your ignorant comments on "compassion"! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995923 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995923
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 04:50:14 GMT
Chunyan Li wrote "What a "compassionate" rebuttal! It is only the political turmoil that slowed down the invention ..." Chua is talking about early childhood to pre teens. Children must first know something to be responsible for their own actions. Creativity comes from knowledge. Being responsible for the bigger community stems from thousands of years' of Confucian teaching, and gives one the ultimate sense of accomplishment. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995894 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995894
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 04:40:34 GMT
Chunyan Li wrote "Chua is talking about early childhood to pre teens. Children must first ..." I believe it is "Xiao dao," filial duty to parents. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995864 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995864
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 04:25:26 GMT
Chunyan Li wrote "I believe it is "Xiao dao," filial duty to parents." Please read the Q&A "I wrote the book at a moment of crisis. Amy Chua." I do not think she is boasting at all, but to self reflect with a self mocking tone. You are absolutely right that countless Chinese mothers are not like this. I'd like to give Prof. Chua the benefit of the doubt and believe that she indeed is a loving mother, and a capable professor teaching tomorrow's leaders. I also found insightful the response from Yale students and faculty that she was misunderstood.
http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/2011/jan/18/qa-yale-law-professor-amy-chua/ http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995859 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995859
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 04:23:10 GMT
Chunyan Li wrote "Please read the Q&A "I wrote the book at a moment of crisis. Amy ..." Leon doesn't really take a stand for much. First of all he's comes off as someone who reads too much Malcom Gladwell. The "brain size" thing is a reference to Dunbar's number ratio which is hypothesized to correlate with neo-cortex size. After that he's essentially another "middle way" advocate. What's intelligent about that?
He does go into a bit about 'objective education' which I found interesting but is there any reason to believe that Chinese educational system does the better? Just learning how to say diagonalize a matrix does not appear to give you any special insight into determining if something is a fact or not.
Granted groups are not intrinsically more efficient in solving problems however there are some and probably most problems that only groups can solve. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995771 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995771
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 03:53:03 GMT
Kim Eagles wrote "Leon doesn't really take a stand for much. First of all he's comes ..." .It gave me great sadness when I read Amy Chua’s essay on parenthood. While there is no perfect recipe, I truly hope that New Haven Family Services are investigating her. She has no right being a parent. Her behavior is outright abusive and irresponsible. Clearly, her only objective is her own selfish interests in showing off to her colleagues and her reckless pride in being the best. However, no sane mother, regardless of race or creed, would ever rear children in such a heartless and loveless environment. I know countless Chinese and non-American families, and I never saw a mother take such pride in abusing her children. On the contrary, most mothers are extremely kind and defensive about their families. Amy Chua’s arrogance emasculates her husband and is an outright disgrace for Yale University. She is an abomination and an insult to the female gender and Asian society.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995730 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995730
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 03:39:22 GMT
Tamerlane Smith wrote ".It gave me great sadness when I read Amy Chua’s essay on ..." .It gave me great sadness when I read Amy Chua’s essay on parenthood. While there is no perfect recipe, I truly hope that New Haven Family Services are investigating her. She has no right being a parent. Her behavior is outright abusive and irresponsible. Clearly, her only objective is her own selfish interests in showing off to her colleagues and her reckless pride in being the best. However, no sane mother, regardless of race or creed, would ever rear children in such a heartless and loveless environment. I know countless Chinese and non-American families, and I never saw a mother take such pride in abusing her children. On the contrary, most mothers are extremely kind and defensive about their families. Amy Chua’s arrogance emasculates her husband and is an outright disgrace for Yale University. She is an abomination and an insult to the female gender and Asian society.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995729 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995729
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 03:39:18 GMT
Tamerlane Smith wrote ".It gave me great sadness when I read Amy Chua’s essay on ..." This is all very amusing. Anything to sell a book. To the author and her children, I wish a harmonious and successful life. For my self, I couldn't stand the aggravation. My four daughters may not be the huge "success" that hers will be but they will be at least as happy and content, if not more so. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995705 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995705
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 03:31:54 GMT
Lesa eckert wrote "This is all very amusing. Anything to sell a book. To the author and her children, I ..." I've looked at what little data there appears to be on Kumon in math. Interesting enough there's little to recommend. There's lots of flowery language about it corresponding to various ideas in Cognitive Theory etc...but little hard data and what there is is craptacular. One school in Huston scored two years and looked at the change in percentile rank between the year before and after. Of course there's no information on the variance (You know what is a good sign of mathematical illiteracy people who give mean scores with no other information - If Kumon came up with a program that showed people how to interpret numbers rather than just do simple algebra it would have my vote light-years before this stuff) but the greatest difference was 33% and the worst was -12%. The median was 13% across all grades. This is assuming no year-to-year improvement in general or other kinds of variation. Could grades vary 13% per year? Quite probably.
Perhaps I don't talk to mainlanders enough but I find far more gwailo want to wax eloquent about yin and yang and Confucianism. Just sayin'
...and I don't think I buy that you're a psychologist. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995684 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995684
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 03:24:19 GMT
Kim Eagles wrote "I've looked at what little data there appears to be on Kumon in math. Interesting enough there's ..." I don't think there is a right or wrong parenting method however there is the incompatible method. And yes, I think we can all agree on the fact that practice makes perfect, but it doesn't mean that you have to force a child to practice. Some kids will need more push than others, some are natual born leaders with passion, and some just defy authorities.
We talk about successful kids breed from Tiger moms, but what about the ones that failed? I, for one, am a product of a failed Chinese Tiger mom parenting. I was a rebelious child and required reasoning to motivate myself. The more my mom screams and hit me, the more I shut down and look down upon her. Even as I'm older, the idea that everything is not good enough and that I have to be better has been infused into me. Now, whatever I do is not good enough even when other people tells me otherwise, I don't believe them. I will always think that you're just saying it because it's what you're suppose to say. Yes, I was under a typical Chinese overseas upbringing. I was an A student, I excelled in piano passing exams with merit, etc. So what? It doesn't mean anything now. Even non-A's local school students are doing better than myself.
I also understand that in reality its a competitive world. If you can stand your Tiger mom, you can most likely deal with your future demanding boss. At the same time, because of the focus on just practice to be the best, we're losing the appreciation of the art. A friend of mine told me about a famous violinist who was on tour in Hong Kong. Everyone knows about him and tickets were sold out. This violinist, for some odd reason, decided to play on the street in the middle of the bustling brand names shopping area. Hardly anyone recognized him or appreciated his music. So what does that mean? People only recognized him because of his name? and not his skills?
I know about a Chinese guy in my neighboring building who killed him mom and tried to commit suicide afterwards. Well, this might have been an extreme case, but it happened.
So, this is why I don't think there's such thing as the best parenting method, but I believe that parents should learn to observe their child and listen to them, but not necessary give in. With some tweaking of Western and Eastern ways, I think all should turn out well. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995643 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995643
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 03:12:34 GMT
Tiana Ma wrote "I don't think there is a right or wrong parenting method however there is the incompatible method. And ..." @Abslom. You're making a huge assumption when you say, "I think..." http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995634 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995634
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 03:09:48 GMT
Robert Dunn wrote "@Abslom. You're making a huge assumption when you say, "I ..." I think you mean...
COMPLETE HILARITY - blah blah blah http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995603 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995603
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 03:00:16 GMT
Abslom Daak wrote "I think you mean... COMPLETE HILARITY - blah blah blah" I think people in the next room can hear me rolling my eyes. The strawman was that you addressed an argument different from the post you were responding to. The original poster talked about how they believed Chinese women "are so eager to marry men from other cultures" and you responded with something about how many Chinese women are actually married to Chinese men.
The point, try to follow. Is that the person was talking about how many Chinese women are EAGER to marry foriegners. See, being eager to be married is different from being married - at least where I come from. Likewise someone who is EAGER to marry a foreigner is not married, nor is it necessarily an indication of the probability at which they will marry a foreigner. It describes a state of desire. Again in case you still don't quite understand the situation being EAGER to sleep with Zhang ZiYi is actually not the same as actually ending up sleeping with her. Were someone to compare the number of people EAGER to sleep with her with the number of people who have actually slept with her they would - surpising nobody - find a difference between those two figures. The later figure being unsurprsingly smaller than the former. Furthermore nobody would consider the argument that the later figure being small is an argument for the former figure being equally small.
I realize that I've been a bit tedious but that's because I think you may need the repetition. I presume that the original poster was impliing that an elevated value of western mates has some carry-on argument for valuing western society and social norms.
However, as I said those things are neither here nor there as it's difficult to determine what the actual values are. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995590 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995590
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 02:56:39 GMT
Abslom Daak wrote "I think people in the next room can hear me rolling my ..." CONTINUE FROM THE PREVIOUS POST: But as we learn, our heart connection and our admiration and appreciation for this little bundle of amazing energy continues to grow.
Now, what about that word, INSIGHT? Be advised that American culture has a long tradition of promoting self understanding and analysis, while that is simply not the case in China. The important perspective in China is that of family and country, and deep attachment to both. There is heart embedded in that connection, but insightful awareness of that connection is clouded by a turbulent history and a cultural heritage of looking outward rather than inward.
So, being a shrink before I was a management consultant and entrepreneur means that I have greater sensitivity for this word, Insight, than my wife and her Chinese mother friends. They gather together on the weekends to talk about parenting, schooling, college and the future. They plan and scheme and test their ideas with each other. They do internet research on private schools, boarding schools, test scores and more. They PLAN for their children's future, as do China's leaders PLAN for the country.
There is consensus among Chinese parents, the educated citizens of this country, about what is best for their children. There is surely much greater variation than Amy Chua has claimed for how these parents go about their duty of planning and executing for their children's future.
Embedded within this planning and executing is a heart that has evolved over thousands of years. it is there, unmistakably so. BUT the insight is barely dawning of its existence. In extolling the virtues of achievement, Amy Chua and China's news media, fail to recognize that which underlies their deepest nature.
A good and loving heart.
While the country I left 18 years ago has succeeded and struggled over two decades, it is worthwhile to remember our deepest nature as humans. We have a need to survive, achieve and prosper. We also have a need to connect in loving ways. It takes BALANCE and INSIGHT to recognize that.
There is much the two countries have to learn from each other. China is just beginning to rise up the evolutionary ladder to the point that it can recognize its own heart. From a distant perspective, prior to Obama, it appeared to me that the US had lost its heart.
The future must create a middle way, a middle path with balance for the two countries and the two parenting styles to come together into a collaborative, nurturing and achieving union. Witihout this our children will perish. With it, we will create a new world to address the most critical issues for the survival of humanity.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995553 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995553
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 02:48:05 GMT
Irv Beiman wrote "CONTINUE FROM THE PREVIOUS POST: But as we learn, our heart connection and our ..." I can't make heads or tails of those either. To me "shao dao" means "to have a fever" the other one sort of sounds like "to give the cold shoulder to" but I don't understand the context. WSJ please add unicode support (and people who want to write Chinese please use pinyin or jyutping" http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995528 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995528
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 02:40:21 GMT
Kim Eagles wrote "I can't make heads or tails of those either. To me "shao ..." As a foreign psychologist and consultant, I have lived & worked in Shanghai for the past 18 years. I have a Chinese wife, born on the mainland, who has10 years study/work experience in the US & an MBA from Duke Univ. We have an 8 year old adopted daughter who is a delightful addition to our lives and an important responsibility for us. I understand Amy Chua's article; my wife pointed it out to me with a prideful look on her face. Our daughter is now in her third year of piano lessons, and yes, I went through torture when I heard the crying when she was first learning how to play. As Amy [and my wife] proclaimed, getting through the hard part does lead to a feeling of accomplishment. Amy's article however, emphasizes the hard work and coercive nature of her relationship with her daughter, while also acknowledging her love for her children. The point of her article though, is to clarify differences between styles of parenting, with a not so subtle prideful implication about results. I'm sure other readers have commented on the differences in history between China and the US, and the obvious differences in etiology of parenting styles and needs.
The few meaningful points that I can able to add to the voluminous discussion about this important topic have to do with the issue of BALANCE and the psychological characteristic of INSIGHT. The opening up of China has unleashed a torrent of entrepreneurial energy alongside deep seated drives for achievement. Competitive pressures for places at top universities have increased, thereby reinforcing the parenting style that Amy Chua accurately describes. She misses something in her writing, though, that is surely there for many Chinese parents, although they do not talk much about it, and may not clearly realize it.
While Amy describes the YANG nature of parenting, i.e. the aggressive, coercive, forceful style that she felt compelled to use, she fails to also describe the other side of that duality, the YIN nature of a loving parent, that which is loving, nurturing and sweet. My wife can be like Amy, although maybe not quite so strong, but she also shows an entirely different side. She shows and shares her heart with our daughter.
In this manner, she moves toward a balance of loving forceful "tough love". The pendulum swings between Yang and Yin, sometimes unpredictably, but MOST of the time, there is LOVE and there are EXPECTATIONS of IMPROVED PERFORMANCE. The pendulum swings intermittently, not always regularly, but it does swing from one side to the other.
What is the result? Above average school performance in an international school, something we continue to work on. Beyond that though, our daughter has a zest for life that is noteworthy by all who meet and greet her. She engages life and others with a playful attitude, a hearty laugh, and a grin or smile with a twinkle in her eye that warms all of the hearts who pass through her life space. She negotiates every day for more of what she wants [play] with increasing skill, displaying an aptitude for interpersonal influence that artfully reflects leadership potential. She displays unmistakable EQ [emotional intelligence]. She knows that we love her deeply, and she returns that love in her own delightful way.
Both of us show both Yin and Yang in our relations with our daughter. We talk frequently about our strategies for moving her to the next stage in her rapid development. We recognize the importance of achieving balance in our parenting styles, for our daughter's long term development, success and happiness.
She plays with friends, has sleepovers, plans days in advance, helps us organize for our trips and holidays and is now teaching me how to play "cut the rope" on her iPad. She does KUMON every day [an extracurricular systematic match skills program]. She does extra work for reading and spelling. She does all her homework every night and works with Mother on Saturday mornings for Math, and with me at multiple times during the week for English. She has a Chinese tutor and 3 piano lessons a week. She has a weekly swimming lesson from a wonderful tough love young new mother who was on China's National Swim Team. She jumps on the trampoline in our back yard. She sleeps with us on the weekends.
This is not to say we know what we are doing. We don't. We simply are learning at each step along the way, the same way China's leaders have learned over the past 3 decades, "crossing the river one stone at a time." http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995522 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995522
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 02:38:44 GMT
Irv Beiman wrote "As a foreign psychologist and consultant, I have lived & worked in Shanghai for the past ..." Let's not kid ourselves! Controversy sells! Ms. Chua is intelligent and educated. The WSJ article WILL promote her book further. I'm sure anyone would welcome more money in their savings accounts regardless of how wealthy they already are. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995517 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995517
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 02:37:49 GMT
ERIC CHAN wrote "Let's not kid ourselves! Controversy sells! Ms. Chua is intelligent and educated. The WSJ ..." Not exactly. Very few things differentiate to that degree (for example an assignment gets marked out of 6 it's highly unlikely that the best in China is going to be six times better than the best in the US).. Two interesting effects you will find is that there is less difference between the top scorers and more randomness. In other words you will tend to make decisions based on insignificant information more often. For example look at the 1st head 100m dash results for the 2008 Olympics. The results range from 10.2 - 11.9 a difference of 1.7s with the standard deviation of the mean at 0.32s - that's freaking small. In fact I'm willing to bet that for a lot of participants if you tracked their runs during the last eight months of training that they would vary more than 0.32s and possibly as much as 1.7s. What does that mean? Well, it kind of means that there is little reason to believe that the rankings for that race are kind of random. I could go through an analysis of the whole event to the awards but I would expect I find a similar thing. That the differences between 1st, 2nd and 3rd are actually pretty likely to be attributable to chance.
I think someone on the board was complaining about extra-circulars being part of college/ivy league admissions. Well this is kind of a vote in favor of those things. All numbers have error in them and it is idiotic to ascribe more meaning to a value than it can have and that's precisely what happens with college admissions based purely on academic scores. If you only looked at academics (which are probably the easiest scores to mark and the easiest to manipulate) then you would take your applicants order them by grade and draw a line at the 'nth' place person (where 'n' is the number of placements you have) . However you could be assured that there is little differentiation between those people with regard to their ability to score on some set of tests. Which means there's a pretty good likelihood that someone you've accepted is worse than someone you've rejected. It also means that you're no longer optimizing for whatever your outcome is (for example many institutions want to minimize drop out rate). http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995495 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995495
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 02:32:04 GMT
Kim Eagles wrote "Not exactly. Very few things differentiate to that degree (for example an assignment gets marked ..." That was hilarious. And actually, has a lot more insight and depth than Ms. Chau's writing. This writer is completely multi-cultural, quite amazing. Thanks for the link! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995490 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995490
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 02:29:49 GMT
Robert Dunn wrote "That was hilarious. And actually, has a lot more insight and depth than Ms. Chau's ..." You answered your own question: the great majority of the comments from "Tiger Cubs" lament how they were treated. Ms. Chua just doesn't have many witnesses in her corner. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995439 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995439
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 02:17:14 GMT
tom merle wrote "You answered your own question: the great majority of the comments from "..." Vaughn, don't you know that WSJ is a propaganda media. Most of the title of the article are purposely twisted to suit their agenda. Obviously you seldom read WSJ or you only read WSJ. Wake up. And WSJ is especially well known for anti-Chinese articles, and American commentors here are mostly modern Klu Klux Klan. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995418 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995418
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 02:10:51 GMT
Zhuang Fu Lai wrote "Vaughn, don't you know that WSJ is a propaganda media. Most of the title of the article are ..." So far, all the comments I've seen on here are from angry parents, angrier mothers, wronged "victims" of Asian parenting, and a whole boatload of other people ranging from engineers to teachers to relatives to Asian mothers themselves.
Everyone's seen/heard from practically all the adults out there. Now let me ask this: Have any of you read the opinion of Ms. Chua's daughter?
Here, read it for yourself: http://www.nypost.com/p/entertainment/why_love_my_strict_chinese_mom_uUvfmLcA5eteY0u2KXt7hM#ixzz1BUttW1hn
And before anyone starts saying how "Of course her kid's going to defend her!" or something along those lines, let me ask another question: What is the perspective of the "tiger cubs," a.k.a. the children of all the other tiger mothers out there? Since they're the ones going through this, shouldn't they express their opinions on parenting styles? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995412 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995412
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 02:09:46 GMT
Ariana Yang wrote "So far, all the comments I've seen on here are from angry parents, ..." I am so sorry to learn that. However, I do not see there is any connection between Amy Chau's life story and your daughter-in-law's. Every person is different. The Journal put this title for the article is trying to create controversy. Manling Williams is a grown woman, should have full responsibility for whatever she did, even if her parents expressed their feeling. May God bless you go through such a difficult time. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995404 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995404
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 02:08:05 GMT
Abby Jiang wrote "I am so sorry to learn that. However, I do not see there is any ..." I am so sorry to hear that. God bless you to go through such a difficult time. However, I do not see there are connections with Chau's story and your daughter-in-law's. The title of the article was given by the Journal. I believe it was trying to sell and get controversy. Chinese mothers are normal human being too. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995341 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995341
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 01:50:47 GMT
Crystal Jiang wrote "I am so sorry to hear that. God bless you to go through such a ..." I am so sorry to hear that. God bless you to go through such a difficult time. However, I do not see there are connections with Chau's story and your daughter-in-law's. The title of the article was given by the Journal. I believe it was trying to sell and get controversy. Chinese mothers are normal human being too. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995328 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995328
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 01:47:48 GMT
Crystal Jiang wrote "I am so sorry to hear that. God bless you to go through such a ..." Thanks for sharing, it's downright hilarious. Chinese students grew up to become robots would not have written anything like this. Yet another nail in the coffin of the robots myth. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995263 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995263
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 01:30:35 GMT
Chris Doe wrote "Thanks for sharing, it's downright hilarious. Chinese students grew up to become robots ..." I don't understand why Western mothers are getting so upset about this article. Amy Chua's comments about Chinese mothers being superior are in my mind simply self-indulgent chatter. The source of her platitudes about Chinese and Western parenting must come from deeply engrained lack of confidence or a vain desire for attention. It would be quite easy to point to a whole litany of failures of Chinese children in both China and in the West. To assuage the mothers of the West, I can say one thing. The great western tradition is to emphasis choice and accountability, which emphasizes the important role of the invidual and the responsibility he or she MUST TAKE for his/her actions. Conversly, the despotic methods of the so-called Chinese mothers emphasizes the importance of the community and the subjugation of the individual will. Indeed China and the West have the same philosphical differences in how they govern their people. One could argue there is never a true sense of accomlishment unless it is achieved through individual choice. Indeed, choice and responsibility (ownership) is the source of all creative ideas. Discipline is artful and beautiful when born of choice not coersion. Afterall, with the right kind of "discipline", one can make humans do amazing things, like digging their own grave before you execute them. Chua mocks the raw deal of Western parenting for parents, but think about the implicit lack of faith she has in children to do anything of their own accord. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995240 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995240
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 01:24:37 GMT
Daniel Bennett wrote "I don't understand why Western mothers are getting so upset about this ..." Alan,
I read a couple of your comments...agree with you. Well done.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995226 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995226
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 01:20:37 GMT
Tina Lee wrote "Alan,I read a couple of your comments...agree with you. Well done...." It would be better to read her book first, before devoting so much of your time writing your "comments". http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995203 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995203
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 01:16:54 GMT
Joshua Lio wrote "It would be better to read her book first, before devoting so much of ..." I visited china for a month and learned that being number one in china is different from being number one in america. To be number one in america you have to be the best of 250 million. to be number 1 in china is 1.4 billion. that is almost 6 times better than the number 1 in america. the drive is not only a driver for excellence, but rather for securing basic opportunites. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995195 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995195
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 01:14:12 GMT
kironyo kironyo wrote "I visited china for a month and learned that being number one in china is different ..." For some kids, playing sports is better, for others, instruments are a better fit to their individual talent. You do observe many professional athletes (in NBA, NFL, Boxing) has a lower than average IQ, while the professional musicians in classical music usually have a higher than average IQ, especially true in piano and violin players. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995170 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995170
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 01:08:08 GMT
Joshua Lio wrote "For some kids, playing sports is better, for others, instruments are a better fit to their individual ..." Hi Abslom. In regards to the motivations of Chinese women in regards to marriage. I'm not speculating, I'm basing my comment on fact. The majority of Chinese women in the world are married to Chinese men. As an additional anecdotal example, a friend of mine who I have known for five years here in mainland China just moved to the U.S. as a fiance, she will marry.....a mainland Chinese man now living in Georgia. I asked her why not marry a non-Chinese, she said, why would she, how would she communicate, how would they be able to get along. Would be happy to hear your "facts." http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995079 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995079
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 00:44:36 GMT
Robert Dunn wrote "Hi Abslom. In regards to the motivations of Chinese women in regards to marriage. I'm not speculating, ..." Personally I've never wondered (or even considered) that Chinese parents were possibly raising more superior children than Western parents. I never treated my children the way this mother describes and both of them are now in top ranking colleges doing exceptionally well. (one of them even on a very respected full merit based scholarship that stressed being a "well rounded person") I don't doubt for a minute that this mother loves her children and that the culture that she grew up in influences her beliefs on child rearing. However, I don't believe that as the article title implies, that she or any other Chinese mother, is superior to Western mothers. We all love our children and are hopefully raising them to be productive people in society. I don't believe that my children would have benefited or been at any better advantage in life if I had personified a "Tiger Mother" http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995023 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1995023
Thu, 20 Jan 2011 00:29:19 GMT
Stephanie Thomas wrote "Personally I've never wondered (or even considered) that Chinese parents were possibly ..." I guess raising a child to be successful and miserable is more important than medium wage and slap happy.
Those poor kids, they have no childhood memories to look back on. :( http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994913 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994913
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 23:57:59 GMT
David Hill wrote "I guess raising a child to be successful and miserable is more important than medium ..." I would love to see more kids attain your academic results, but I think your tactics are despicable. I have encountered some of the hyper-competitive, success-obsessed products of this "Be the best at everything at all costs" upbringing in the corporate world, and once they aren't receiving letter grades, their performance does not particularly outshine their western-reared peers. Their neurotic nature and need for approval, however, often stand out and are remarked upon. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994893 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994893
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 23:53:21 GMT
Valerie Graves Bessent wrote "I would love to see more kids attain your academic results, but ..." Your point is excellent and I appreciate it. I agree entirely. Our gifts do not predispose our potential contributions to society. Some very gifted individuals are deleterious to our society, indeed. I have the highest level of respect for the blue collar worker who lives a life of self-respect and citizenship. My parents and my wife's parents are blue collar. Ms. Chua is patholgical, in my opinion. I was merey attempting to put a hole in her theory and outrageous suppositions about "proper" parenting. Perhaps I fell into a bit of a show-em-up trap. Speaking of... Her Harvard credentials should not be misconstrued as being a sign of intelligence and they certainly have no applicability to the art of parenting. I have 2 degrees from there and have done many stupid things, and am an average (but loving) father. She obviously missed the ethics and humanites classes....and whole boat as far as I'm concerned. I would be more pleased if my children were blue collar and lead responsible lives, rather than that of ?elite white collar who all too often prove themselves selfsih twits....sorry Goldman Sachs. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994872 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994872
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 23:46:56 GMT
LOUIS TERESI wrote "Your point is excellent and I appreciate it. I agree entirely. Our gifts ..." I suppose sang ji jing means Three-Character Classic (San Zi Jing)what are shao dao and loung li, Arnold? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994861 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994861
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 23:41:31 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "I suppose sang ji jing means Three-Character Classic (San ..." Well, if this piece wasn't satirical to begin with, at least it's inspired well-written satire, such as this one:
http://shanghaishiok.com/2011/01/14/why-chinese-girlfriends-are-superior/ http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994860 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994860
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 23:41:11 GMT
Tina Chan wrote "Well, if this piece wasn't satirical to begin with, at least it's inspired well-written satire, such as this ..." This was an interesting article. I am surprised by the number of students that committed suicide from being less than perfect. I wouldn't have thought there would be so many. I do; however, see why. Those students are put under pressure to be the absolute best their entire lives. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994840 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994840
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 23:35:00 GMT
Aimee Piatek wrote "This was an interesting article. I am surprised by the number of students that committed suicide from ..." I used to start my day by reading headline news. That changed since this discussion started. It even took my lunch time. I think the spectra from the haters to lovers are all challenged. This paper leaves most people uncomfortable, so much that a record number of people need to vent. Adds all related comments in other news, interviews, I bet the comments are in tens of thousands, including countless well written personal experiences. These testaments, either support or reject the doctrine of her parenting style, represent the value of this discussion. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994820 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994820
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 23:30:04 GMT
chanmin su wrote "I used to start my day by reading headline news. That changed since this ..." Tracy, Asian american students are victims of Affirmative Action, more so than white students. Of course, they'd say the Affirmative Action was banned. Now they have a practice called "Diversity". The colleges can accept students with much less qualifications under the name of diversity. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994809 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994809
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 23:27:05 GMT
Jay Goal wrote "Tracy, Asian american students are victims of Affirmative Action, more so than ..." It is not 100% right in western education or in Chinese education. In western edu. kids have fully confidence and are more independent and have their own thinking. However, the family root isn't that strong than Chinese. If western education could add something like "shao dao", "loung li", "sang ji jing", and "how to be a human" that will be better. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994794 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994794
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 23:23:22 GMT
Arnold Sullivan wrote "It is not 100% right in western education or in Chinese education. In western edu. kids have ..." Wylde,
First all, why the parenting experience of Amy Chua (or the idea she is trying to import as you described) has anything to do with COMMUNIST China? Can you guarantee NOT SINGLE European or African or North American parents are using the same way to educate their kids? If not, do they also import their way of parenting from Communist China? How absurd!
If you want to bash communism, suit yourself. But please keep your argumant and logic relevant.
BTW, I am an American too. I have no need to INSULT Americans cuz that would be insulting myself. Americans are NOT defined by last name or face, but by the very spirit we hold dearly. Last time I check, America is a country with freedom of speech and American people have every right to criticize the country and air their opinion without being charged unpatriotic. A true patriot should be brave enough to tell the truth even the truth is ugly and hurts. That is not insulting.
I think what you should pay more attention to is whether what I said is the FACT. That'd make any debate simple and straight. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994790 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994790
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 23:21:47 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Wylde, First all, why the parenting experience of Amy Chua (or the idea she is ..." haha, reading the comments here are very interesting. Sometimes it's even so very entertaining.
Sometimes, you can't help but surprised by how ignorant some Americans are when it comes to another country or culture. Even when it comes to a country deemed to be its strongest rival, many people knows little.
If you go to China, you can find a lot of Chinese who know America very well. But if you ask an random American anything about China, all they can say is Communist, human rights or red China. It would surprise me if anybody knows who is the current Chinese president (of course. WABC's street interview shows many American people don't even know who is the current American president).
Is China still a communist country? If you ask Don Thompson, Bill Gates or Daniel Akerson, I'm sure their answer is NO, because McDonald's, Microsoft and GM have been making big profit from there for quite some time. How can a captalist make big money in a communist country, right? Why McDonald's, Microsoft or GM don't go to Cuba? Many Americans just don't understand, today's China is even more a capitalist country than USA! It's a capitalist country plus dictatorship under the name of Communist Party. That's simply it. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994663 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994663
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 22:35:49 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "haha, reading the comments here are very interesting. Sometimes it's even so very ..." First of all 1000 years is a millenium and the Tibetian low-ox gene which if confirmed is the most recent known evolved trait is supposed to be 3,000 years old. So while traditional thinking on evolutionary time scales was very large. We still think it takes millenia. Second, exams might select for intelligence if the result was more offspring. However the imperial exams were by comparison a very small number of positions relative to the unselected population. In all of the examples the selection pressure was constant (earwax, melanin) across the population. With regard to the exams the selection pressure was sporadic. Even if we accept the idea of soft sweeps being responsible for most of human evolution they still don't respond to the kind of situation you are talking about. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994532 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994532
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 21:59:00 GMT
Abslom Daak wrote "First of all 1000 years is a millenium and the Tibetian low-ox gene which if ..." I am a Chinese mother too. Any Chua is one of the most extreme Chinese Mothers out there for sure. Kids can only take so much. If it becomes too much for a young child, I believe it is not going to work at the end, and as a parent will pay the price later. We have saying in China called things will develop in the opposite direction when they become extreme. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994512 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994512
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 21:54:29 GMT
Lin Dai-Morris wrote "I am a Chinese mother too. Any Chua is one of the most extreme ..." Amy Chua has nothing to do with communisim, and the Chinese parenting she described had nothing to do with communisim. Do you know that there has been a China since the last several thusand years before communisim was born? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994500 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994500
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 21:50:31 GMT
Cathy Justice wrote "Amy Chua has nothing to do with communisim, and the Chinese parenting she described ..." I am chinese and a father. My parents aren't like her. Still, I turn out well. I disagree with all her points except the one about parent involvement in their children's education. I do agree with her that parents should expect more out of their children and be willing to step in to supplmenet areas of the education where the public system fails. But this is not a "chinese" concept per se.
Chinese parents are not surperior. I have seen my share of failures. And I, as a chinese parent, could learn a lot from western parents also such as how to rear children to be independent in all aspects, to respect others, to be creative, and to be courageous. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994499 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994499
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 21:50:26 GMT
Henry Wu wrote "I am chinese and a father. My parents aren't like her. Still, ..." Sorry my error, suicide rate for Asian women is 1/3 less than "western" women for all age group combined. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994495 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994495
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 21:49:49 GMT
Chunyan Li wrote "Sorry my error, suicide rate for Asian women is 1/3 less than &..." This method is great for creating emotionless children who can reach number one at a measurable activity: classical piano competitions, math SAT scores, and science fair competitions. What about writers, artists, entrepreneurs, and jazz pianists? How many people from this method can accomplish creative things? Zero (hyperbolic, but close) !
Kids need a diversity of activities and stimulation to become complete humans. Who cares if you're number one if you cannot relate to other human beings and lack the analytical ability fostered by diverse pursuits to see the shortcoming in this type of parenting?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994489 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994489
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 21:48:52 GMT
Joel Kline wrote "This method is great for creating emotionless children who can reach number one at a ..." Ok, I read the book. It is nowhere close to what the article sounds. I guess the article is a way of getting attensions. Here is what's on the front of book
"This is a story about a mother, two daughters, and two dogs.
This was supposed to be a story of how Chinese parents are better at raising kids than Western ones.
But instead, it's about a bitter clash of cultures, a fleeting taste of glory, and how I was humbled by a thirteen-year-old"
The book clearly shows that Amy is a strong willed individual and in many ways extreme. But I can see how much love she has for her two wonderful and successful daughters. I was especially touched by the ending of the book, witnessing the transformation of a Chinese mother into a Western one, when she realized that her younger rebellion daughter clearly clashes with the idea of being a typical "Chinese" kid.
Now I am convinced that parenting should be in between the "Chinese" way and "Western" way, starting with "Chinese" way when children are young and unable to judge right from wrong, then gradually eases into "Western" way when they are teenagers and able to think for themselve in a rational way.
This is a book I would read over and over again. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994481 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994481
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 21:47:12 GMT
Y Huang wrote "Ok, I read the book. It is nowhere close to what the article sounds. I ..." -------"Her name appears under the article title."---------
Ms. Payne, when we read an article, we don't read just title. A well-educated person should make sound judgement and insightful opinion based on much more information than just a title.
China's human right issue is another big topic which has nothing to do with the parenting topic discussed here. Actually I want to vent anger to any human right violations in any country, not just China. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994475 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994475
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 21:45:54 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "-------"Her name appears under the article title."--------- Ms. Payne, ..." A professor? Oh, please at least stay on the topic. Has Prof. Chua talked about creativity in the article? Please do some research on the Chinese Science and Civilization, which has been documented by Prof. Joseph Needham and his institute. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994455 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994455
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 21:42:10 GMT
Chunyan Li wrote "A professor? Oh, please at least stay on the topic. Has Prof. Chua talked ..." CAPITAL TITLES - then some text that kind of meanders around some vague point. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994433 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994433
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 21:36:29 GMT
Abslom Daak wrote "CAPITAL TITLES - then some text that kind of meanders around some vague point...." Strawman. Being eager to do something and doing it are not the same. As someone who spends a fair amount of time on Chinese boards I can say that there is definitely a belief in China that Chinese women (especially in affluent areas) want to marry foreign men. There was an essay a few years back by one girl explaining why all Chinese men are insufficient for her. More recently there was one trying to encourage Chinese men to be more attractive to Chinese women (one anecdote mentioned how a sociologist left China because there were so many PYT's hanging around her husband).
However what most Chinese women in China would do is something that can only be speculated on both by JM and you. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994427 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994427
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 21:35:12 GMT
Abslom Daak wrote "Strawman. Being eager to do something and doing it are not the same. As someone who spends a ..." Her name appears under the article title.
OK, let me vent to any Chinese who gives tacit approval to the human rights abuses in China. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994416 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994416
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 21:32:02 GMT
Vaughn Payne wrote "Her name appears under the article title. OK, let me vent to ..." What is this hard data of exactly? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994402 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994402
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 21:27:55 GMT
Abslom Daak wrote "What is this hard data of exactly?" The same mothers produced those who passed the 1882 Chinese Exclusions Act, the only law based on race. And of course the Japanese Internment. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994396 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994396
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 21:27:06 GMT
Chunyan Li wrote "The same mothers produced those who passed the 1882 Chinese Exclusions Act, the ..." Amy *says* she didn't choose the title. It seems to stretch credibility that she didn't approve or have veto on it. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994387 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994387
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 21:24:11 GMT
Abslom Daak wrote "Amy *says* she didn't choose the title. It seems to stretch credibility that she ..." Yes for thousands of years, the Chinese parenting style has created inventors that produced 15 MAJOR inventions per century that significantly changed the world. An Wang, Roger Tsien, Jerry Yang are a few of the latest. You can read Science and Civilization in China for fun. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994377 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994377
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 21:21:50 GMT
Chunyan Li wrote "Yes for thousands of years, the Chinese parenting style has created inventors that produced ..." Vaughn,
The title was given by WSJ which is already very misleading. You have seen so many Chinese or Chinese American parents have protested all over the places. Again given her background she can't in any way represent the image of Chinese Mothers. How she raised her kids is purely her own experience. A savvy and un-biased reader can easily recognize that.
Furthermore, even the CHINESE in this title imposed by WSJ doesn't really imply she came from China. It just meant the ethnic Chinese and maybe its traditional culture. What makes you so certain that she CAME FROM China when you said "when she comes from a country that encourages female infanticide ..."? Or maybe I misunderstood you and the country you mentioned actually meant USA? After all that's the country she actually came from.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994349 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994349
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 21:15:54 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Vaughn, The title was given by WSJ which is already very misleading. You have ..." When you are asked to accompany the school chorus, yes you can lead by playing the piano. When you are the concert master in an orchestra, yes you can lead by playing the violin. When you assemble instrument performances at the local senior center, yes you contribute to society by playing the violin or piano. What is the definition of success in life? This particular portion of the article did not even touch EQ or creativity, or leadership. Why is it so easy for people to switch the topic? Being creative I guess. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994346 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994346
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 21:15:14 GMT
Chunyan Li wrote "When you are asked to accompany the school chorus, yes you can lead by ..." If this is true, it is also very sad. If you measure success solely by academic and career achievement, maybe this process works. It should be noted that Chinese adolescents have the highest suicide rates when compared to their same aged peers. As such, it seems the author should ensure her children are emotionally healthy enough so that they will be able to enjoy their academic successes later in life. I have a feeling the author is using a little hyperbole here, maybe wanting to stir up some controversy so she can sell some books. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994272 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994272
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 20:56:41 GMT
Michael McRae wrote "If this is true, it is also very sad. If you measure success solely by academic and career ..." I watched the interview on CNBC last week and have read the WSJ article, but I would never buy the book. Having been born in Taiwan and raised by parents still branded by medieval Chinese culture (a la Shanghai), I don't need more reminders of what Tiger Moms or Tiger Dads are like. It's not like a pleasant trip down memory lane.
All I can say from looking at a variety of families and cultures in the 52 years I have lived in this country is this: Every family develops their own form of dysfunction which is carried on into future generations. Whether it is dysfunction with authority or with siblings and peers, or social dysfunction, or some other thing, we pass on a lot more than genes when we raise kids.
One thing that Ms Chua has not revealed in this article, is that Chinese parenting involves one "good cop" and one "bad cop." (Something my father "confessed" to me when he watched me disciplining my own). This is not to mean that you go to Mom if Dad says no. Both parents have the same goal in mind....just a different delivery to balance negatives with positives.
In my assessment of trying to balance old Asian culture with the instant gratification of the West, I have one guiding principle: At some point, we can no longer make decisions for our children--they do become emancipated and live in a world that is not cocooned by their parents--so, at best, we can only teach them to make good decisions and choices for themselves. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994262 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994262
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 20:55:46 GMT
Sophia Hsieh wrote "I watched the interview on CNBC last week and have read the WSJ article, but ..." Mr Yu:
The title of the article reders to "Chinese Mothers", not Filipino or American mothers. The impiication of her trite is that Chinese mothers are superior. I have no need to "talk about" her parents. By my estimation they should be embarassed they raised such a self-centered, self-righteous minnow. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994153 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994153
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 20:22:17 GMT
Vaughn Payne wrote "Mr Yu: The title of the article reders to "Chinese Mothers", not Filipino or American ..." What's going on here? There was something definitely missing from this book - how to make our children more fertile. It isn't enough to teach them to be successful, duh. Read my complaint here:
http://and-read-all-over.blogspot.com/2011/01/amy-chua-wheres-part-about-raising.html
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994131 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994131
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 20:16:36 GMT
Joe McVeigh wrote "What's going on here? There was something definitely missing from this book - how to make ..." This was the way I was raised in the l930's. We had no TV and no playdates. I
practiced music an hour and ballet an hour instead of playing with kids. I was
socially disabled. I finally recovered, married late. When the WSJ asks if the
Chinese childrearing method is better, or the "permissive" US method, the obvious
answer is neither. Somewhere in the middle? Of course, with lots of details one
cannot fill in here. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994121 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994121
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 20:14:54 GMT
Mariel Strauss wrote "This was the way I was raised in the l930's. We had no TV and no playdates. Ipracticed ..." I am a Chinese mom and an angry with the author. I will not buy the book butI will read the book. But the chances of me changing my opinion about the author is slim. I think she didn’t expect the responses will be so negative when she published the book. Now the sad thing is she brought the whole Chinese down with her.
She is a control freak and it’s nothing to do with her race. Have you watched “wife swap”? Individuals of all races and sexes behave her way. The author lives a disconnected live. Maybe she should watch more TV and not shield her daughters so much after all. Cause she is so out of the world. She tried to justify her behavior by calling her parenting style “Chinese” and blaming on her heritage.
But she is so wrong. """""""A lot of people wonder how Chinese parents raise such stereotypically successful kids. They wonder what these parents do to produce so many math whizzes and music prodigies, what it's like inside the family, and whether they could do it too. Well, I can tell them, because I've done it. """"""" Had she even know any of us Chinese moms besides her mother? I bet she lives a totally westernized life cause she has a white husband. She is in a world of herself. Self-centered and curl. She claimed she has retrieved and know her parenting needs to change. I am sorry, the damage is down. She may not be an abuser now, but she was one and now she has a book out there so all the world knows forever. She expect her book can teach Chinese mothers something and let the westerners have a peek of what’s happening behind the closed Chinese doors.
Yes, I am sure she will sell lots of books because the westerners are so curios why Chinese raised such high achiever. Yes, lots of westerners will be misled by her and think the “Chinese mom” secrets finally been revealed. Yes, many western readers will think that she is such a brave and honest “Chinese mom” that she risk of being hated but want to make people think.
I an a Taiwanese grow up in Taiwan. I thought my dad was a control freak growing up. By reading some of the materials of her book online, she is a lot worse then my dad. Like I said, individuals of all races and sexes behave her way. They are all abusers and nothing to do with their heritage. People grow up from these environment to be nothing like that all the time.
I think the author owe an apology to all Chinese moms in the world cause of her poor judgment of word choice. She is so selfish and inconsiderate. She grow up in the America. Her 1st language is English. I hope she can speak fluent Chinese. Otherwise she is a disgrace of calling herself a “Chinese mom”. My 1st language is Mandarin and I also speak Taiwanese. My English is not as good as hers, a Yale professor, of cause. I may not can write a book in English for westerners. That’s why the damage of the reputation of ‘Chinese mom’ is so big and makes me so angry. I don’t want to be categorized with her. Ms. Chau, I am here asking you to do something to clear my name and all the names of “Chinese mom”. I wish money can make you happy. Cause I am sure you have a lot of it and more, cause of the book. And if fame can make you happy, then here you have it, but I wish is the kind of fame you are looking for. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994107 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994107
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 20:11:49 GMT
mandy wu wrote "I am a Chinese mom and an angry with the author. I will not buy the book butI will ..." This woman can not and should not make the claim that being strict, inflexible, strong-willed, unforgiving and flat out psycho is the formula for her daughters’ achievements and “successful” up bringing.
Bullying a child to obedience/fear/submission takes not talent. And putting the words “love” or “benefit” does not make it less abusive
To brag about how one can impose one’s will upon a child, forcing them to extended work sessions what could easily break federal labor laws and how miserable it was; and then to say that it was all hugs and kisses and jokes and games only confirms the bipolar nature of this woman. What children (under 12) will not want to hug and laugh and be happy when given the chance, even when after a few minutes of an abusive episode? To say “all is good because we hug and kiss at the end” does not minimize the abuse. Don’t victims of spousal abuse say something similar?
When two Ivy League professors marry each other and have off spring, we can expect them to be somewhat smart and talented (the children). The appreciation for academic life and cultural enrichment will more accessible for them than for others. If these girls are talented and mentally balanced, it is solely because of their own character, despite of their mother’s good intentioned but erroneous actions. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994088 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994088
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 20:07:16 GMT
Roberto Pang wrote "This woman can not and should not make the claim that being strict, inflexible, strong-willed, ..." "How dare a Chinese mother lecture anyone on proper parenting techniques, when she comes from a country that encourages female infanticide, sex-selective abortions, abandonment, one-child manifestos, and multiple other human rights violations"
Are you talking about USA or Philippines?
FYI, Amy Chua is an America-born American. The United States of America is where she came from.
If you want to talk about her parents, they came from Republic of Philippines.
Her arrogance to represent Chinese Mothers is already inappropriate and shameful. Readers should not fall in her trap and make the mistake again. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994054 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994054
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 19:58:12 GMT
Alan Yu wrote ""How dare a Chinese mother lecture anyone on proper parenting techniques, ..." All I can say is OH MY!!! What does a sleep over have to do with success, or lack thereof?!? Why aren't children allowed to be children? Why are instruments better than sports?
If anyone can answer I"d appreciate it. Until then, I think I'll stick with my current method of parenting- one that will not turn out a serial killer or drug addict..
It's worth noting my son who is 5 has just been accepted into one of the most competitive educational programs in the US. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994042 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994042
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 19:54:58 GMT
SUMMER Guerra wrote "All I can say is OH MY!!! What does a sleep over ..." I'm the opposite of a Chinese mother, I will praise a C if I think my child did their best. My child attends 2 or 3 sleepovers a month. Plays the harmonica and chooses all of his extracurricular activities. I could go on but I think my child will be just as successful as the children of so called Chinese mothers and much more well adjusted. My child makes friends, has decent grades and feels good about who he is and that matters a lot more to me than perfect grades and playing the piano. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994040 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994040
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 19:54:47 GMT
Kalone Baker wrote "I'm the opposite of a Chinese mother, I will praise a C if I think my ..." Thank you for your comment! Your English is fine! I agree with you, this author just ruined a bunch of names she shouldn't have. And you're right, she is kind of hypocrite isn't she? She DID marry a white husband... so much for traditions! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994004 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1994004
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 19:45:29 GMT
Cnith Theonliestone wrote "Thank you for your comment! Your English is fine! I agree with you, this ..." "There is some disagreement among scholars about how widespread warfare was in pre-Columbian America, but there is general agreement that war became deadlier after the arrival of the Europeans and their firearms. Europeans had gunpowder and swords, which made killing easier and war more deadly. Europeans proved consistently successful in achieving domination in warfare with Native Americans for a variety of reasons. One reason was the staying power of the Europeans, who could call on a far ranging supply network, and could sustain a conflict over several years including the winters if necessary. Almost no Indian tribes had the stored resources to conduct a war for more than a few months. The massive death toll from disease played a major role in the European conquest, but equally decisive was the European approach to war, which was less ritualistic and more focused on achieving decisive victory. European colonization also contributed to a number of wars between Native Americans, who fought over which of them should have first access to the new weapon."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993966 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993966
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 19:32:50 GMT
Weijia Wu wrote ""There is some disagreement among scholars about how widespread warfare was in pre-..." Right on the mark, Michael. Science is now finding that evolution occurs in centuries not millennia. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/20/science/20adapt.html?hpw These environmental forces get absorbed into the Chinese DNA literally over generations. Ditto with Jews. Ashkenazi Jews manifest a distinct genetic profile which, it has been argued, "may result from the demanding social niche into which they were forced between roughly 900 and 1700 CE, and the nimbleness required to be useful to their unpredictable hosts." {NY Times] Culture=nature and nurture. The Imperial Court, the communists, now the intense drive to succeed in the US all fortify these traits. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993965 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993965
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 19:32:42 GMT
tom merle wrote "Right on the mark, Michael. Science is now finding that evolution occurs in centuries not millennia. ..." There are pathways to success which are balanced and yield good social skills. My children are very bright, very disciplined, active in sports and music, and have solid social lives. They are all ranked in the top 10% of their class in schools which are about 50% Asian. They perform community service work....and take pride in it. Surprisingly (supposedly) they are Caucasian, from a Euro-American household. Academic drones are not what is needed in this country, whatever the race or ethnicity; we can get them through the internet real cheap. We need idea people, innovators, leaders with principles and dignity. Social skills are essential in positions of leadership. Interestingly, for all the suffering Ms. Chua subjected her kids to, I'm not impressed with their achievements (which is sparsely referenced in the article for obvious reasons). I've seen this in my neighborhood over and over again in Asian households...work, work, work in a futile struggle to be barely better than mediocre. Everyone a follower without innovative or personal skills. Likely they'll be working for my kids someday. On a separate, but related note: If, according to the WSJ, the article on Chinese mothers is "all the news fit to print" the Journal should re-evaluate its editorial practices. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993960 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993960
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 19:30:59 GMT
LOUIS TERESI wrote "There are pathways to success which are balanced and yield good social skills. My children are ..." http://professionals.collegeboard.com/data-reports-research/sat/cb-seniors-2010/tables
refer to SAT Critical Reading, Mathematics and Writing Mean Scores by Race/Ethnicity, Asians have a 20% improvement over past 10yrs, compared to zero for White.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993947 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993947
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 19:25:34 GMT
Venkat ProudAmerican wrote "http://professionals.collegeboard.com/data-reports-research/sat/cb-seniors-2010/tables refer to SAT ..." I share Eric's perspective. I think Ms. Chua would not have garnered the attention she did if she talked about the sacrifice of immigrant parents, Chinese and otherwise, in a foreign land. Instead she talked about the coping mechanisms that many immigrant families employed to not squander a chance to succeed in America. As many of you know teenagers are not the most critical and have a very different perspective of their lives at that age than they will have at a later stage in their lives. Although my parents were not as extreme as Ms. Chua the same set of expectations were there and I think provided a good set of guiding principles for life: minimize failure through hard work, expect the best of yourself, set lofty goals even if they don't seem achievable at the outset, respect and self-esteem are earned, short-term sacrifices for long term gain, well roundness (really-how many teenagers would rather practice violin, flute and sax rather than hang out with friends), use every opportunity you have, cast out envy and be responsible for yourself (we were poor immigrants also and there was no use lamenting other kids possessions; it was clear that my parents were not going to be handing me designer clothes. If I wanted anything I had to work for them myself), be equipped to cope with the future and not to depend on others (or by extension depend on the social safety net).
If Ms. Chua had talked about her immigrant experience that way, and discussed how that influenced her parenting technique it would be a great yawn instead of the >7000 comments here and the buzz in the media. However, it should not diminish the point she is making. I hope that this might be the first salvo in a discussion in a greater debate that is not occurring at large: the turn to a child-centric society. Mark Bauerlein talked about one aspect of it in "The Dumbest Generation". Part of what Ms. Chua is talking about is imposing a counter measure of discipline to the natural tendencies of child hood. It is part of the same point that Malcolm Gladwell made in "Outliers". Exposure in childhood to different opportunities may lead to someone finding their calling or passion in life, and if lucky it can create great success as adults. If children are left to indulge themselves without parental input then they are prey to mass marketing and become shaped into the perfect consumer. Is that what parents want? Do parents realize that is what is happening absence their involvement in their children's lives.
Ms. Chua's argument may be that it takes a strong measure of parental discipline to counterbalance mass media and mass marketing. Some force is driving the interests and expectation of children-the greatest being peer pressure. What is the root of this? In this modern age it is the blare of all media being amplified by non-critical child-like (because they are children after all) minds. Should advertising and consumerism be the de facto primary influence of children (teenagers included)? If not, then a reasonable approach is to focus on what you can do in your own boat. Is this not what is done in sports training? Do athletic coaches not employ a lot of the same techniques that Ms. Chua uses? Yet that kind of expectation of pushing children to their limits, imposing single mindedness for winning, harsh and strenuous physical training, and verbal aggressiveness is generally accepted in sports. Ms. Chua is doing the same thing in a broader context. It is just overlaid on a cultural perspective that, at first blush, is foreign but is common to a lot of immigrant experiences.
Ms. Chua's methods interlace solutions to two problems: how to cope as poor immigrants in a foreign land with great opportunities and how to counteract the sapping of individual potential by marketing and consumerism. Just as we should all realize we never have the complete story in any given personal situation we should realize that her book and article is not complete in its description of her family's life. I saw an interview of her on NBC and it is clear she is not the monster that the bulk of comments here portray her to be. She is flexible and a caring mother. She is just not a patsy to passive-aggressive parental manipulation that so many chidren are good at. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993932 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993932
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 19:19:36 GMT
David Young wrote "I share Eric's perspective. I think Ms. Chua would not have ..." I don't want to comment on what is good or bad parenting style, but rather provide a little background on why Chinese mother has the "academic excellence equals success" mentality. Started around 600 AD, Chinese adopted standardized testing as the selection method for government officials. Meaning even if you are a janitor before the test, after winning 1st place in the test (I used the word winning because the test is not scored, but ranked) you could be appointed as the Governor of California next day. Not because people elected you, not because you are a Hollywood action icon, not because you married a Kennedy, but simply because you did good on a test. Obviously the test is not easy, you are competing with the whole population of China, so how do you beat everyone else and score the highest? Study, study, and then study some more. Repeat the process for about 1300 years and you will have the "academic excellence equals success" mentality too. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993926 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993926
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 19:17:38 GMT
Michael Yu wrote "I don't want to comment on what is good or bad parenting style, but rather ..." This article is misrepresentation of Chau's book. As she has written in the Journal since, the title was not picked by her and these excerpts are from the the beginning of a book which is actually about her journey AWAY from traditional Chinese parenting. If anything, I would call this piece disturbing propaganda sanctioned by our boy RM. Do a search and read for yourself what Chau reponded on Saturday.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703583404576080032661117462.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993904 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993904
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 19:12:27 GMT
Peter Gaard wrote "This article is misrepresentation of Chau's book. As she has written in the Journal since, the title was not ..." The comment if factually incorrect. There are more Native Americans in North America today than when Columbus landed.
Most of the historical deaths of the Native Population were due to disease, not war. The deaths from war, primarily came at the hands of other tribes.
In the one major action by the US, the "trail of tears", the US Supreme Court ruled in favor of the Native Americans. The "atrocity" lay at the hands of one man -- Andrew Jackson, who proceeded despite the Supreme Court ruling. Andrew Jackson, btw, is the begininng of the Democratic Party.
Slavery preceded the founding of the country, so thus cannot be blamed on the founding fathers. If anything, the founding fathers laid the foundation for the abolition of slavery -- which of course resulted in a war.
The Hawaiian population was naturally "marginalized" by interracial marriage. There was no eradication of the Native Hawaiian population. Imported Portuguese, Japanese, Chinese, etc. cultures simply blended into the cosmopolitan exitence that is today's Hawaii. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993902 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993902
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 19:12:01 GMT
Barron Yanaga wrote "The comment if factually incorrect. There are more Native Americans in North America today than ..." I second what Ms. Chua said to her husband: "I'm willing to put in as long as it takes, and I'm happy to be the one hated. You can be the one they adore because you make them pancakes etc." The parental popularity contest is right in this paragraph. Who cares enough to deliver the corrective information and stay with child until s/he "gets it"?? American kids also waste enormous amounts of time instead of exploring and figuring life out getting rehashed highly produced eye-candy games and "answers" on their computers, TV's, IPhone, and IPads. I'm an American "Tiger" mom. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993879 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993879
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 19:06:32 GMT
sonja renda wrote "I second what Ms. Chua said to her husband: "I'm ..." Mandy, you are 100% right!
My wife, me and most of our Chinese friends have the same feel towards Amy Chua. She has absolutely NO way to represent the image of Chinese Mothers. Who give her the right to generalize Chinese Mothers in such an extreme way? She speaks only for herself, no more and no less.
Also I think WSJ has responsibility too. It was just trying to fan the flame with such an arrogant and irrational title to gain the attentions and debate from readers. To some extent it succeeded, but in a despicable way! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993837 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993837
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 18:53:35 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Mandy, you are 100% right! My wife, me and most of our Chinese ..." Great logical thinking Vicky. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993786 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993786
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 18:45:02 GMT
JESUS VILLARREAL wrote "Great logical thinking Vicky." Thank you! Abusers always have an excuse. She is just using Chinese culture as hers.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993683 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993683
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 18:19:37 GMT
Heidi Hanson wrote "Thank you! Abusers always have an excuse. She is just using Chinese ..." I am oddly fascinated and drawn to this article wondering...if I were stricter with my kids, would that really make them stronger?
Sometimes I get REALLY tired and worn out with the constant fighting and whining over stupid things like getting dressed now (not later, now) or doing extra homework to improve in a certain area or limiting dessert. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993674 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993674
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 18:17:52 GMT
Angela Hill wrote "I am oddly fascinated and drawn to this article wondering...if I were stricter with ..." I think that the parents put a lot of pressure of their kids, but I do understand their side. I put pressure on myself. I try to get the best grades, look my best, act mature, and really just be the best at everything. I don't mind if I get a B because of the effort I put in and the challenging courses I take. With the relationship between America and China right now, the Chinese parents are doing the right thing. Their kids will be determined to do better in the business world. When they compete against Americans for any job, there is a pretty good chance they will win the majority of the time. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993653 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993653
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 18:13:13 GMT
Aimee Piatek wrote "I think that the parents put a lot of pressure of their kids, but I do understand their ..." I'm sure in the greater than 7000 comments to this article others have mentioned this, but it bears repeating over and over:
How dare a Chinese mother lecture anyone on proper parenting techniques, when she comes from a country that encourages female infanticide, sex-selective abortions, abandonment, one-child manifestos, and multiple other human rights violations.
I have no repsect for Mrs Chua, or her opinion. Her ("superior)" talents would be put to better use if she would direct her venom at her Chinese brethren.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993634 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993634
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 18:06:23 GMT
Vaughn Payne wrote "I'm sure in the greater than 7000 comments to this article others have mentioned this, but it ..." I believe one can make their kids into whatever one wants them to be. Do you want your children to be robots focused only on making money? Beat them regularly and deny them even the simplest pleasures of childhood. I suspect Ms. Chua's children would work even harder if they had their toys taken away and were only fed after performing correctly.
I have three kids. None are great scholars. Perhaps I have failed them. But Ms Chua never once mentions "love" in her entire diatribe boasting of her "superior" child raising techniques. She's been applauded for her "honesty" and defended by suggestions her article is somewhat tongue-in-cheek on this board, but I find her pitiful and emotionally stunted. God knows what damage she is exacting from her children in the name of "superiority". http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993616 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993616
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 17:59:49 GMT
alexander parish wrote "I believe one can make their kids into whatever one wants them to be. ..." I am a Chinese mom and an angry with the author. I will not buy the book butI will read the book. But the chances of me changing my opinion about the author is slim. I think she didn’t expect the responses will be so negative when she published the book. Now the sad thing is she brought the whole Chinese down with her.
She is a control freak and it’s nothing to do with her race. Have you watched “wife swap”? Individuals of all races and sexes behave her way. The author lives a disconnected live. Maybe she should watch more TV and not shield her daughters so much after all. Cause she is so out of the world. She tried to justify her behavior by calling her parenting style “Chinese” and blaming on her heritage.
But she is so wrong. """""""A lot of people wonder how Chinese parents raise such stereotypically successful kids. They wonder what these parents do to produce so many math whizzes and music prodigies, what it's like inside the family, and whether they could do it too. Well, I can tell them, because I've done it. """"""" Had she even know any of us Chinese moms besides her mother? I bet she lives a totally westernized life cause she has a white husband. She is in a world of herself. Self-centered and curl. She claimed she has retrieved and know her parenting needs to change. I am sorry, the damage is down. She may not be an abuser now, but she was one and now she has a book out there so all the world knows forever. She expect her book can teach Chinese mothers something and let the westerners have a peak of what’s happening behind the closed Chinese doors.
Yes, I am sure she will sell lots of books because the westerners are so curios why Chinese raised such high achiever. Yes, lots of westerners will be misled by her and think the “Chinese mom” secrets finally been revealed. Yes, many western readers will think that she is such a brave and honest “Chinese mom” that she risk of being hated but want to make people think.
I an a Taiwanese grow up in Taiwan. I thought my dad was a control freak growing up. By reading some of the materials of her book online, she is a lot worse then my dad. Like I said, individuals of all races and sexes behave her way. They are all abusers and nothing to do with their heritage. People grow up from these environment to be nothing like that all the time.
I think the author owe an apology to all Chinese moms in the world cause of her poor judgment of word choice. She is so selfish and inconsiderate. She grow up in the America. Her 1st language is English. I hope she can speak fluent Chinese. Otherwise she is a disgrace of calling herself a “Chinese mom”. My 1st language is Mandarin and I also speak Taiwanese. My English is not as good as hers, a Yale professor, of cause. I may not can write a book in English for westerners. That’s why the damage of the reputation of ‘Chinese mom’ is so big and makes me so angry. I don’t want to be categorized with her. Ms. Chau, I am here asking you to do something to clear my name and all the names of “Chinese mom”.
I wish money can make you happy. Cause I am sure you have a lot of it and more, cause of the book. And if fame can make you happy, then here you have it, but I wish is the kind of fame you are looking for. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993575 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993575
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 17:47:50 GMT
mandy wu wrote "I am a Chinese mom and an angry with the author. I will not buy the book butI will ..." Thank you for reminding all that this article was written with a healthy dose of wit and delightful sarcasm. I think it's one of the most entertaining articles I've read in the WSJ the last few years. You just know that this mother didn't get onto the Yale Law School faculty by being sadistic, and she could not have been as extremely & devotedly strict as the literalists suppose, while also spending enough time to teach law at Yale and write a book. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993425 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993425
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 17:07:28 GMT
Carolyn Young wrote "Thank you for reminding all that this article was written with a healthy dose of wit and delightful ..." Pretty gutsy comparison. You failed to mention that the same Mothers who produced the founding fathers also produced those who almost wiped out the entire native American population, marginalized native Hawaiin population, enslaved African Americans, and opened the most war fronts overseas in recent years. The core theme of your statement appears to be that killing millions of your own race is a crime, but killing millions of other races is not. Every country and culture have a dark history some point in time. If you want to criticize Chua's parenting approach, stay relevant. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993416 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993416
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 17:05:02 GMT
Vicky Wu wrote "Pretty gutsy comparison. You failed to mention that the same Mothers who produced the ..." Jan, I read a couple of the articles in the SGVTribune. God bless you and strengthen you through the remainder of your ordeal, which I know will never truly end. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993379 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993379
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 16:56:06 GMT
Carolyn Young wrote "Jan, I read a couple of the articles in the SGVTribune. God bless you and strengthen ..." I'd love to spend the time commenting in depth, however I have to take my kid to his electric guitar lessons, soccer game and then High School Musical rehearsal.
Sarcasm aside, there have been mothers in China since the dawn of time. It goes without saying they produced the same children who eventually established the Communist regime and took part in the massacre of millions of people. The type of discipline and conformity prescribed by Ms. Chua played a significant role in that part of Chinese history.
Contrast that with the Mothers who produced the founding fathers and the great entrepreneurs and Capitalists who built America from a few colonies of determined individuals to the greatest country the world has ever known.
There are a few good take aways in Ms. Chua's article, but make no mistake. China is starting to reach its potential because it's adopting western values and the "American Way."
Here's to American and American Moms. May you always lead the way and continue to make our country great!
Visit kids4biz.com and help stop economic child abuse. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993233 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993233
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 16:29:20 GMT
Michael Malgeri wrote "I'd love to spend the time commenting in depth, however I have to take ..." "However he thinks that the music pieces in Prof. Chua's book are not really that difficult, he has mastered most of them already, and a little practice would be all that is needed to pick the rest up. Sensing an opportunity, I have put up the challenge for him."
Would you please keep us posted regarding his progress, say every five years or so? I am really curious to see how long your son sticks to Piano.. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993232 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993232
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 16:29:15 GMT
Shuvo Datta wrote ""However he thinks that the music pieces in Prof. Chua's book are not really that ..." Jan, so terrible to hear it. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993185 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993185
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 16:21:02 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Jan, so terrible to hear it." DOUBLE POSTINGS - partly it's a weak-kneed blog system that has a delay in updating that made many of us hit the submit button twice before realizing our submissions went in. I think the "glitch" is a huge WSJ right-wing conspiracy to rustle up some trouble in us citizens. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993169 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993169
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 16:17:08 GMT
Robert Dunn wrote "DOUBLE POSTINGS - partly it's a weak-kneed blog system that has a delay in updating that ..." BOUGHT INTO IT - You bought the book? I'm pretty disappointed in 'ya Apratim. Thought you were way smarter than that. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993155 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993155
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 16:14:41 GMT
Robert Dunn wrote "BOUGHT INTO IT - You bought the book? I'm pretty disappointed in 'ya Apratim. Thought ..." HOMEGROWN PROBLEM - Hi Ed. It has nothing to do with Congress. It is all up to you, the consumer. Stop buying anything made in China and instead chose to pay more for a locally made product. It is THAT simple. The Chinese factory gets a markup of about 1-3%, while the U.S. company that retails that product in the U.S. gets a between 100-300% markup. The only person to blame is your wealthy AMERICAN neighbor or yourself, not a hardworking person in China. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993126 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993126
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 16:09:00 GMT
Robert Dunn wrote "HOMEGROWN PROBLEM - Hi Ed. It has nothing to do with Congress. It is all up to ..." IMPERIAL MARGARINE - The Imperial Court? Oh please. Yes, please expand on this thought Tom, I'd like to see what kind of separation from all logic emerges. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993105 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993105
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 16:03:16 GMT
Robert Dunn wrote "IMPERIAL MARGARINE - The Imperial Court? Oh please. Yes, please expand on this thought ..." There are an awful lot of parenting studies and in some of my spare time I've been reading them. Like a lot of the social sciences their methodology is at times lacking but some of the things they study are at least interesting:
For example indulgent parenting implies greater fruit consumption (when compared to strict and neglectful) and the most and least strict parenting didn't differ much in the restriction of sugar sweetened beverages (moderates did) which is kind of interesting when it comes to some of the things Ms Chua is on about (and who knows even gives some credence to the 'balance' crowd) it's conceivable that Ms. Chua doesn't actually motivate her children much more than a far more indulgent parent and what we are seeing is actually the result o f other biases like wealth. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993088 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993088
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 16:00:34 GMT
Kim Eagles wrote "There are an awful lot of parenting studies and in some of my spare time I've been ..." PERCEPTIONS - I just have to keep plugging away here when mis-perceptions come up. While there are some parents like Ms. Chau, there are MANY who are not. If someone is in China for a while, you'll come to realize how free in spirit people on the ground are, it's actually very "American." Don't let the press/media/communist party muddle your thinking. And by press-I am putting down the WSJ for their "fire-in-the-theatre" title. It belongs in the 1950s, not 2011. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993085 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993085
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 15:59:48 GMT
Robert Dunn wrote "PERCEPTIONS - I just have to keep plugging away here when mis-..." SACRIFICE - I agree with Eric, and I would say that sacrifice is more the hallmark and cornerstone of Chinese parenting. My father didn't take a vacation for 20 years, but I got sneakers, a baseball bat, and one of the first computers. When it came time to take care of him, I gladly bathed him, walked with him, and put him first in my life. By the way, he never once yelled at me. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993063 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993063
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 15:54:04 GMT
Robert Dunn wrote "SACRIFICE - I agree with Eric, and I would say that sacrifice is more the hallmark and ..." BILLION - I thought I'd dig into your response just for a bit of fun. The part where you said "I have also noticed how many (probably a billion) Chinese women are so eager to marry men from other cultures." Sure, there's a segment. But your assertion is totally ... wrong.
The MAJORITY of Chinese women marry Chinese men and this is why China has a population of 1.3 billion and growing. Let's keep things in perspective. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993022 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993022
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 15:45:32 GMT
Robert Dunn wrote "BILLION - I thought I'd dig into your response just for a bit of fun. The ..." While he's probably not right...he is making no more a mistake (except that he's probably being more offensive) than virtually everyone else here. I notice that you didn't level the same criticism at the person above who said that Chinese people don't get into large debt as easily. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993002 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1993002
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 15:41:30 GMT
Kim Eagles wrote "While he's probably not right...he is making no more a mistake (except that he's ..." I admit I read this 'balance' bit and I wonder just what it is and what's the point? I mean I would assume that a strategy for doing something should be "optimal" the greatest result based on reasonable effort but that doesn't mean anything is going to be be "balanced" (i.e. in equal proportion)
Also the number of people who want to generalize "Chinese are this" and "Chinese are that" seem pretty loopy to someone who makes their living actually calculating the central tendency of things. Does everyone simply have trouble recognizing that their self-selected samples are probably biased six-ways to Sunday? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992996 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992996
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 15:39:47 GMT
Kim Eagles wrote "I admit I read this 'balance' bit and I wonder just what it is and ..." " but his extolling of the cafeteria populated by 14 year olds"
To infer the above from Brook's article further demonstrates the incredibly large strawman you are capable of pulling of. It further shows your (much) vaunted 'education' from two/three Ivies has born some real fruits: incredibly large GOURDS.. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992991 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992991
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 15:38:46 GMT
Shuvo Datta wrote "" but his extolling of the cafeteria populated by 14 year olds"To infer the above ..." "This forum has not reached 10,000 posts. Not even 7,000, which was my hope for past Saturday. Prof. Chua's book has not cracked #1 in the Amazon bestseller's list. "
I wonder if this is an example of the arbitrary goal setting you do at home? Think about it:
i) We don't know if the Amazon ranking (you've been only quoting the US figures. Last I checked Canada had it in the 200's and the UK had it at lower than 10000 and Japan doesn't have the book yet) has any meaning at all as Amazon doesn't publish how this relates to actual sales.
ii) Would 10000 posts be better than 5000? Why? What useful thing are we modeling?
...and while these values might be simply for entertainment it's interesting that your entertainment seems to have a need to be centered around competition. That unless someone (or some group) has a number bigger than some other number - no matter how utterly meaningless the metric - it isn't good enough (whatever that means 'successful entertainment' maybe?). Which is exceptionally interesting and a pretty good reason as to why the "compete at everything" is ultimately a poor strategy. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992958 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992958
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 15:31:36 GMT
Kim Eagles wrote ""This forum has not reached 10,000 posts. Not even 7,000, which was my ..." Here is my take on how Special Needs mothers feel about this article:
http://www.hopefulparents.org/blog/2011/1/19/mother-wars.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992944 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992944
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 15:28:33 GMT
Jane Parker wrote "Here is my take on how Special Needs mothers feel about this article:..." Prof Chua's parenting 'success' so far is no big deal. My illiterate mother and too poor for music llesson father managed to raise 2MDs out of 4 children, the other 2 are not too shabby either. I would be aghast if the children of 2 Yale professors turn out to be bums.
Now, my mother will give you a course in extreme parent at no charge. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992866 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992866
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 15:05:33 GMT
Virginia Wai wrote "Prof Chua's parenting 'success' so far is no big deal. My illiterate ..." This reminded of a boy in my secondary school, back in Hong Kong during the 60's. At lunch time, while most of us took our thermo pots in the 'lunch' room, this boy will have an entire retinue waiting for him. His 'chief' mother, a couple of 'secondary' mothers and at least 2 servants, the lunch was laid out by the servants then passed on to the 'secondary' mothers and finally put into his mouth by the 'chief' mother.
We never worked out who his real mother was, the boy never talked to us; he was considered the joker in the school and he knew it... I think. Have not idea what became of him, he was 15 years old then. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992819 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992819
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 14:51:43 GMT
Virginia Wai wrote "This reminded of a boy in my secondary school, back in Hong Kong during the 60's. At ..." Very interesting editorial, and judging by the number of comments, impactful. Amy has guts for writing this piece and the mother has even more fortitude for being interviewed for it.
Some take-aways:
1) The positive reinforcement that parents can give their kids is time well spent "no matter what their kids are doing." My daughter is an extroverted little terror when she wants to flex her muscle. But I know that she does it because she wants me to understand (and love) her for who she is. In acknowledging her as a unique person, we can both enjoy ourselves when she is doing something that is fun and returns my blood pressure back to normal. For me, practicing acceptance is a pathway to stable growth and development for the child.
2) If you have a parent that can drill the basics into a child, the way it was described in this article, then the child comes out well trained. I have trained horses that way before I was taught to take the temperment and the personality of the horse into account during the development process. Anybody can be trained in math or science. But can you train someone to create something different, innovative, valuable or better. Because 60% of product innovation occurs in the manufacturing process, China has huge opportunities to divine the creative spirit out of the product development process. The Electronics Show this year, for example, produced about 20,000 new gadgets that were most likely produced through manufacturing innovation. Will the "drilled" child be able to create something that is so completely different that it lifts everybody to a better quality of life? I don't know. For the answer I would look to a couple of biographies on Albert Einstein.
3) I don't feel, that it is a good idea to withhold from a child. In my experience, these children became adults that may have been smart, but were so emotionally wounded that they newver enjoyed the quality of life that their "smarts" gave them.
Look forward to the comments. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992785 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992785
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 14:39:08 GMT
Jarred Burchard wrote "Very interesting editorial, and judging by the number of comments, impactful. Amy has guts for ..." Glad to hear it. Have a great day and be sure to tell your son how much he means to you. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992680 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992680
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 14:14:37 GMT
Jana Chicoine wrote "Glad to hear it. Have a great day and be sure to tell your son how ..." Your message confirms my impression that you are a nice person. I am open-minded, and appreciate your last paragraph. I am not a perfect, but caring parent. May I add that sense of humor is needed in this world? I actually think that your posting has a sense of humor, although you may not know it.
By the way, I am not interested in her book but interested in the insights offered by readers like you. It would be a waste of time to read the book. Everybody is different and so is every family.
You have inflated my ego by remembering what I wrote. I think it is garbage, but enjoy my freedom of speech. Here is the difference. I do not take myself too serious.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992635 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992635
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 14:01:29 GMT
shaohua hu wrote "Your message confirms my impression that you are a nice person. I am ..." Why does this mother assume strong academic performance will result in success in life? In the US there is NO correlation between academic performance in secondary or post-secondary school, IQ test scores, SAT or ACT scores and success in life. Reference the books The Millionaire Next Door and Emotional Intelligence for more information.
If her goal is to raise successful children, then how is she accounting for their EQ? Things like empathy, interacting with other individuals, leading a team (something youth sports can teach, but playing the piano cannot), public speaking, conflict resolution and a host of other things that all A's will not begin to provide.
Bottom line: Our education system does not provide the information we need to be successful so focusing so strongly on excellent grades will not produce successful children. In the eastern world where you are assigned to college based on your academic performance and then your job based on your specialty it may be different. In a free society where you have the choice to do whatever you want, it takes a lot more than straight A's. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992551 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992551
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 13:33:56 GMT
Bryan Trilli wrote "Why does this mother assume strong academic performance will result in success in life? In the ..." Oh, really? I don't need to say anything to defend myself because your writings speak for themselves. Among your voluminous responses to this article is a lengthy exposition on the benefits of of calling other human beings 'garbage' as well as this profoundly uncaring parental gem: "I do not wish I had had a mom like Chua, but wish I had a wife like her so that I would not have to deal with my stubborn son that much."
FYI, your son is the most precious gift you will ever receive and by his nature he now loves you so utterly and completely that a mere hint of your genuine love and affectionate attention will cause him to abandon whatever games he is currently comforting himself with. Get in the game and learn to love before it is too late. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992524 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992524
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 13:26:26 GMT
Jana Chicoine wrote "Oh, really? I don't need to say anything to defend myself because ..." No offence intended. What a holier-than-thou attitude! Is it possible that you out-chua in your style? The path to hell is paved with good intention. Many crimes are committed in the name of doing good. It seems you are nice person, but your extreme mentality can be manipulated under certain circumstance. A measure of understanding, tolerance, and forgiveness is the foundation of any society. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992402 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992402
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 12:45:03 GMT
shaohua hu wrote "No offence intended. What a holier-than-thou attitude! Is it possible that you out-..." Hilarious! Because her contrasts, while extreme and stereotypical, are absolutely true as I have experienced it in my life growing up with a Chinese mother in a western society. Amy was extremely brave to make these hidden facts explicit. Hilarious. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992379 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992379
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 12:31:06 GMT
Katrina Ling wrote "Hilarious! Because her contrasts, while extreme and stereotypical, are absolutely true as I ..." Amy Chua has no defense. I've read everything, including her efforts to backtrack and her poor daughter's letter, and IMHO Amy Chua would have to do to the following things to begin to make things right:
1) Issue a statement that no parent should call their child garbage or other demeaning names, deny them opportunities to form deep friendships outside the home, or EVER deny a child water or a needed bathroom break. She must plainly admit that these things are cruel and inexcusable and plead with others not to follow her example under any circumstances.
2) Commit every penny from her 'parenting' book and related paid appearances to charities that serve abused children. Cancel the contract with the publisher so that it NEVER goes into a second printing.
3) Find kind and compassionate counselors for her children and herself and make herself immediately accountable on a daily basis to someone with an enlightened, humane approach to raising children.
Jana Chicoine http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992350 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992350
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 12:15:46 GMT
Jana Chicoine wrote "Amy Chua has no defense. I've read everything, including her efforts to ..." Yes, American parents are often to lenient and yes, this woman is nuts. There is a middle way - and her obvious feelings of superiority in the so-called "Chinese Way" is just as obnoxious as any "Westerners" feelings of superiority. Let's cut to the chase, anyway she means white Americans, not "westerners" in her references.
Reverse racism aside, this is the sort of mom kids (while they work at the White House practicing brain surgery and the like) move across the country to get away from. This is NOT about her kids-it is about herself. The kids grades and accomplishments are things she wants for her own glory, not their happiness or even "success".
No play dates, no sleepovers? So, how would you feel if you worked constantly with no opportunity to see friends or enjoy yourself? Why is it okay to treat a child that way?
Actually, despite the authors obvious racial stereotypes-parents like her exist in all colors, kinds, and cultures and the whole scene is dismal regardless of who is doing it. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992237 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992237
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 11:18:00 GMT
Lenore Kaibel wrote "Yes, American parents are often to lenient and yes, this woman is nuts. There is a middle way - and ..." That's what the defense attorneys argued. They put the blame on her parents and the strict Taiwanese parenting style. She didn't do as well as siblings, and the claim was that telling her she was stupid, and that she never lived up to expectations were the root cause of what she became. IMy thought is that no parenting style is perfect for every child. The individual should be taken into consideration, and adjustments made. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992172 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992172
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 10:07:28 GMT
Jan Williams wrote "That's what the defense attorneys argued. They put the blame on her parents and the strict Taiwanese ..." Let's get some hard data here.
NEW YORK [January 18, 2011] — An unprecedented study that followed several thousand undergraduates through four years of college found that large numbers didn't learn the critical thinking, complex reasoning and written communication skills that are widely assumed to be at the core of a college education. Howard Gardner, a professor at Harvard's Graduate School of Education known for his theory of multiple intelligences, said the study underscores the need for higher education to push students harder.
The key findings are collected below:
"Students who majored in the traditional liberal arts — including the social sciences, humanities, natural sciences and mathematics — showed significantly greater gains over time than other students in critical thinking, complex reasoning and writing skills. Students majoring in business, education, social work and communications showed the least gains in learning."
"Forty-five percent of students made no significant improvement in their critical thinking, reasoning or writing skills during the first two years of college, according to the study. After four years, 36 percent showed no significant gains in these so-called "higher order" thinking skills. Combining the hours spent studying and in class, students devoted less than a fifth of their time each week to academic pursuits. By contrast, students spent 51 percent of their time — or 85 hours a week — socializing or in extracurricular activities."
Read more:
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/01/18/106949/study-many-college-students-not.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992169 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992169
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 10:06:11 GMT
Alex Wang wrote "Let's get some hard data here.NEW YORK [January 18, ..." Don't know number,, but it is people vs. Manling Tsang Williams and is being tried in Pomona, California. She was convicted of 3 counts of First degree murder with special circumstances of multiple homicide and lying in wait on Nov. 4, 2010. Jury was hung in penalty phase, so jury selection starts again April 18, 2011. Why? Do you think I'm making it up? http://www.sgvtribune.com/ci_16652232?IADID=Search-www.sgvtribune.com-www.sgvtribune.com http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992164 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992164
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 10:02:26 GMT
Jan Williams wrote "Don't know number,, but it is people vs. Manling Tsang Williams and is being tried in ..." Check out the latest from Fox News:
China's Rise, America's Fall? | Glenn Beck
http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/glenn-beck/transcript/chinas-rise-americas-fall
Fast forward to page 4 of the transcript and read the words of Jim Rogers (reproduced below):
The average American has got to start with education, with their children and grandchildren. I have a daughter. When she was in the first grade in Singapore, had more homework than I ever had in any year of my elementary school. She's doing things in the second grade that I'm having trouble helping her with in her math.
I can't believe what they're demanding of her. It's very rigorous. It's very demanding. And all these kids are working their heads off. She's in the second grade. You know, China produces something like 20 or 30 times as many engineers every year as we do in America. We don't teach math. We don't teach science. We teach self-esteem. In Singapore, you have to earn your self-esteem. You know, you're not told about self-esteem, you have to earn it. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992152 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992152
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 09:47:12 GMT
Alex Wang wrote "Check out the latest from Fox News:China's Rise, America's Fall? | ..." This is terrible. But does this have anything to do with a particular parenting style ? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992137 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992137
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 09:26:02 GMT
Joshua Lio wrote "This is terrible. But does this have anything to do with a particular parenting style ?" read er book, it will make you feel better. The book is more balanced than the wsj article. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992135 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992135
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 09:22:02 GMT
Joshua Lio wrote "read er book, it will make you feel better. The book is more balanced ..." I've heard all these Chinese parental techniques before - two months ago in a courtroom. A defense attorney was using them to show what a terrible childhood my daughter-in-law, Manling, had had, in hopes of persuading the jury not to give her the death penalty. She had already been convicted of hacking my son to death with a sword and snmothering their two small boys,ages 3 and 7. The Chinese language press refer to her as Manling the Butcher. No parenting style is perfect and what works for one child in a family may not work for another. I may have been more 'lenient' than a Chinese mother with my children, but then,neither of them is a murderer. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992118 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992118
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 09:03:23 GMT
Jan Williams wrote "I've heard all these Chinese parental techniques before - two months ago in a ..." Wow, so many people comment here. I think this time WSJ propaganda hit it big and that is what WSJ want. WSJ article always have twisted title to provoke negative reaction, just like this one. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992104 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992104
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 08:37:34 GMT
Zhuang Fu Lai wrote "Wow, so many people comment here. I think this time WSJ ..." Read her book. Her youngest sister has learning disability .... http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992096 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992096
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 08:29:11 GMT
Joshua Lio wrote "Read her book. Her youngest sister has learning disability ...." Gregory, they are not CEO of top US company because there are glass ceiling, you know.....those ceiling that you cannot see, but it is there. Just like your comment here......it does not look racist, but it is racist. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992091 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992091
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 08:21:14 GMT
Zhuang Fu Lai wrote "Gregory, they are not CEO of top US company because there are glass ceiling, you know........" Ed, continue to take whatever drugs you have been taking.....you sound like Jared Loughner..... can somebody notice FBI please.... http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992088 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992088
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 08:18:25 GMT
Zhuang Fu Lai wrote "Ed, continue to take whatever drugs you have been taking.....you ..." New immigrants often feel insecure in this new world, and they tend to save more, act more cautiously with their investments and work themselves and their kids harder than families who have been here for many generations. That new immigrant mentality is what Amy Chua trying to pass on in her family, and it failed at the end of her book. I wonder 40 years from now, what Amy's grand children will be like ? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992083 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992083
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 08:11:16 GMT
Joshua Lio wrote "New immigrants often feel insecure in this new world, and they tend to save more, ..." jean I guess you live in cockoo nest? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992081 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992081
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 08:10:25 GMT
Zhuang Fu Lai wrote "jean I guess you live in cockoo nest?" Agree with you that she can't represent Chinese Americans at all, let alone Chinese! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992068 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992068
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 07:52:06 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Agree with you that she can't represent Chinese Americans at all, let alone ..." well, sometimes people just need to vent the hatred. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992066 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992066
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 07:49:09 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "well, sometimes people just need to vent the hatred." I’ve grown up with similar parents. I guess you could call them the “Tiger Parents.” ? I don’t believe that Chua was being elitist or racist at all. What she says is true. The Western way of raising children differs greatly from the Eastern. I’ve attended multi-culturally diverse schools where I’ve seen the fruits and products of both forms. I’m not saying one is better than the other, but there is a trend whereas most who are raised with the “Tiger Parent method” excel in academics, the arts, and are at the top of the class. At times, many Western parents also raise their children with the same mentality. This trend does not only apply to the Asian races, but that just happens to be where it is greatest. Having been raised with the Eastern methods, I’m not saying that one is better than another, but I wouldn’t have it any other way. In the middle of my junior year in high school (where many of my peers have also been raised with the same mentality), I am motivated to work and I understand where this work will get me. We are pressured, we aren’t always told the “nice thing” or the “happy thing”, but we are loved. Just in a different way. And personally, I feel that parenting style is a choice that should be left up to the parents. Chua’s methods are obviously helping her children succeed, as did my mother’s, and as will the Western way. I feel we should respect everyone’s culture, beliefs, and decisions. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992064 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992064
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 07:45:40 GMT
Crystal Wong wrote "I’ve grown up with similar parents. I guess you could ..." Ed, you should be there protesting...
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2011/01/18/chinese.pres.arrival.cnn
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992061 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992061
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 07:44:11 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Ed, you should be there protesting... http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2011/01/18/chinese.pres.arrival.cnn ..." It's only natuaral though for WSJ to trigger such a controversal topic by giving such a provocative title for the article.. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992055 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992055
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 07:37:44 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "It's only natuaral though for WSJ to trigger such a controversal topic by giving such a provocative title for the ..." Right on, Diane.
Why the hell does Amy Chua have anything to do with Communist China? She was born here in USA and her parents came from the Republic of the Philippines! They probably have nothing to do with mainland China for generations.
As Chinese people always say, Being ignorant is not one's fault. But showing off the ignorance is definitely one's fault. Some people here are just not capable of giving insightful opinion but resorting to irrelavant racial bias.
How pathetic~ http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992051 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992051
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 07:34:53 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Right on, Diane. Why the hell does Amy Chua have anything to do with ..." Perhaps some of it is also because as immigrants from developing countries like China (or India for that matter), academic success in particular is the only way to ensure secure futures for their children. Whereas that is not as pressing an issue in Western societies, given their level of economic development. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992017 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1992017
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 06:59:20 GMT
Shweta Narayan wrote "Perhaps some of it is also because as immigrants from developing countries like China (or ..." Andrew,
Are you sure that you are a professor in US? Last I checked, professors here do research. Clearly, you didn't do any research about Amy Chua's background. Let me enlight you here. Amy Chua is an American unless you don't agree with US Constitution - 14th Amendment.
And the rest of your comments are merely repeat of other people's comments. Where is your creativity? Write some of your own thoughts please, do you have any?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991976 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991976
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 06:29:07 GMT
Diane Chen wrote "Andrew,Are you sure that you are a professor in US? Last I checked, professors ..." I tend to think Amy Chua didn't purposely exaggerate anything, she just spoke her minds, and it was already controversial.
I also don't believe she used the WSJ article to promote her book, she didn't need to, it's one of the best sellers already. I'm sure she'd rather have her family to live a quieter life than a million bucks more in her already substaintial savings. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991965 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991965
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 06:15:22 GMT
Chris Doe wrote "I tend to think Amy Chua didn't purposely exaggerate anything, she ..." Yes, modes of behavior get absorbed into the national culture, ie., into the biology of a people. We are beginning to understand that evolution occurs over centuries not millennia. The Chinese emphasis on compliance and mastery has developed not since the communists took control. We must acknowledge the role of the Imperial Court in China (221 BC - AD 1912) for shaping the genetics of the Chinese. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991960 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991960
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 06:13:25 GMT
tom merle wrote "Yes, modes of behavior get absorbed into the national culture, ie., into the biology of a people. ..." Excellent analysis Jay! You are completely right! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991876 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991876
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 05:29:43 GMT
ERIC CHAN wrote "Excellent analysis Jay! You are completely right!" I am a professor too, and so were my parents. I am also of asian background. I am thankful my parents were nothing like this woman. Her parenting style may be better for bringing up compliant hard working people, but it is not going to create the free spirited inventors who have defined the American way, viz Orville and Wilbur, Steve Jobs or Burt Rutan.
China needs people who can execute their communist leaders' demands precisely and quickly without protest. So it is not surprising that the Chinese parenting style has evolved to meet that need.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991832 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991832
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 05:14:43 GMT
Andrew Sarangan wrote "I am a professor too, and so were my parents. I am ..." Readers should understand that Ms. Chua's article is really an exaggeration of the Chinese-American philosophy of raising children. The exaggeration was necessary to get everyone's attention, and very successful at selling her book.
As a successful Chinese immigrant to this country, perhaps I can shed some more light on the Chinese-American philosophy of raising children. Some of the readers unfamiliar with the Chinese-American situation in the country over the past half century may be enlightened by a better understanding of the plight of the Chinese immigrant to the United States at that time. I immigrated to the U.S. over forty years ago as a child, arriving with my brother and parents at JFK airport in NYC carrying only two suitcases containing all our possessions. My father spoke very little English, but my mother was familiar with the language. We lived in squalor, unfamiliar with the norms of American society or culture, but we never asked for assistance from anyone. Through extreme hardship, my father worked to earn money dedicated for my and my brother's education. My parents never spent any money on themselves. They sacrificed everything to give us every chance at success in this new land. My father never bought himself a new coat or shoes, leave alone a new car. In return for their sacrifice, they expected only that my brother and I try our best to do better than the previous generation. This country could offer us education and opportunity, two things which were not available at that time in our homeland. My brother and I worked hard in school to succeed and not let our parent's sacrifice go to waste. We both attended ivy league universities. I also attended medical school in this country to become a physician.
Now I am married and have children of my own, one of whom is in high school already. It is not wrong to expect that my children work to build a better life than mine. The methods embraced by Ms. Chua, may seem harsh to Americans who have not had to work through extreme hardship with financial, language, and ethnic barriers. But these methods, although contrived, do not begin to mimic the true hardship experienced by the immigrant generation forcing them to succeed or perish. The subsequent generations of my family born in the U.S., will likely be more like some of the negative responders to Ms. Chua's article, as their lives grow increasingly more prosperous relative to the immigrant generation, and their hunger for success becomes diluted with the creature comforts of the lives provided by their parent's success.
Informing children that we expect them to succeed at their studies is not wrong and does not quench their "creativity". Demanding their performance in academics, sports, and social events is fine as long as we have clearly demonstrated our willingness to sacrifice our resources and assets toward this goal for them as well. Unlike Ms. Chua, I really don't think that most Chinese parents feel their children owe them everything. It is quite the opposite actually. It is because we are willing to give them everything, that we can demand their success. Whether the extracurricular activities, musical instruments, sports, or academics are chosen by the children or by the parents is irrelevant. A better life than ours and success in all that they attempt is what we really demand and should expect. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991830 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991830
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 05:14:06 GMT
ERIC CHAN wrote "Readers should understand that Ms. Chua's article is really an exaggeration of the Chinese-American ..." Point well taken regarding Einstein. Poor wording on my part. What I meant was that if he were put through a tiger upbringing he might have lost his focus on physics and not had the self-motivated creativity that led to his insight on relativity. Absolutely right that he did not "learn" relativity: that subject as named was nonexistent. What did exist and was known and troublesome was the apparent discrepancy between formulas in different frames of reference. Lorentz came close to resolving this discrepancy with his Lorentz transformation, but people didn't know why it worked, and it took Einstein to show that if the speed of light is invariant, whereas time can contract or expand, the contradictions are resolved.
Back to Amy Chua (sort of beating a dead horse now), but yes the real issue is the heavyhandedness of the control, and how although the child becomes disciplined and hardworking in a narrow, academic way, his/her development in other ways may be damaged, independent creativity may stunted, and his vision may be blinkered to the standard, pedestrian path of success. Thanks so much for your thoughts! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991755 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991755
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 04:51:08 GMT
Kyle Wong wrote "Point well taken regarding Einstein. Poor wording on my part. What ..." Making a sweeping statement like this REALLY shows that you are:
1. very well adjusted
2. highly functional
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991705 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991705
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 04:31:27 GMT
Diane Chen wrote "Making a sweeping statement like this REALLY shows that you are:1. very well ..." Frankly, my kids mother is Chineese and I am the blue-eyed/blonde Westerner. She was the one who would COMPLAIN if I called our kids "garbage" in English, of course, because I KNEW they knew how highly I thought of them to matter! I guess then, it takes on a different tone in Chineese to a Chineese! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991696 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991696
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 04:27:55 GMT
James Heidel wrote "Frankly, my kids mother is Chineese and I am the blue-eyed/blonde ..." Frankly, my kids mother is Chineese and I am the blue-eye/blode Westerner. She was the one who would COMPLAIN if I called our kids "garbage" in English, of course, because I KNEW they knew how highly I thought of them to matter! I guess then, it takes on a different tone in Chineese to a Chineese! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991693 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991693
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 04:27:21 GMT
James Heidel wrote "Frankly, my kids mother is Chineese and I am the blue-eye/blode ..." As a minority, it is much easier for girls to socialize than boys, not because of parenting, but due to gender difference and prejudice faced by boys. As you so quickly condemn the outcasts, the boys were "outcasted" even before they became real outcasts. Same goes with leadership, how do you know these boys are not leaders, if they can't even be given the opportunity to lead due to their skin color! It is the same for adult immigrants. Females generally adapt better than males, or are more welcomed by society. Have you considered that the boys and the girls you mentioned could have been raised by the same immigrant parents?
Failing is fine, yet as first generation immigrants with out a big network, who are there to catch them when they fail later in life? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991679 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991679
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 04:20:59 GMT
Chunyan Li wrote "As a minority, it is much easier for girls to socialize than boys, not because of parenting, but due to ..." " but his extolling of the cafeteria populated by 14 year olds as more of a learning place than the library had me in REAL stitches."
at least, there is SOMETHING you do not understand, that is a start..
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991662 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991662
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 04:14:02 GMT
Shuvo Datta wrote "" but his extolling of the cafeteria populated by 14 year olds as more of a learning ..." Have you not read the Yale Daily News interview of Prof. Chua posted above? Read it and her book before casting your quick judgment. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991649 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991649
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 04:11:15 GMT
Chunyan Li wrote "Have you not read the Yale Daily News interview of Prof. Chua posted ..." Amy could be writing about her personal journey on parenting. But her statements are misleading and the general overtone seems a bit presumptious and arrogant. Reading from the WSJ excerpts, she is assuming that all chinese moms who have raised successful children have applied that kind of parenting style and that the success of children is quantified by performances at Carnagie Hall or A+ scores in their academics. I have known many chinese parents who are proud of their children performing their music for the elderly and the sick. If Amy had written her story without making a blanket statement about "the Chinese" from time to time, I think I'd have found it less offensive. I'm not judging her style of parenting. In fact, she's making a lot of subjective statements about the chinese ethnic which are not true. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991641 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991641
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 04:08:47 GMT
Elaine Yeh wrote "Amy could be writing about her personal journey on parenting. But her statements are ..." Good article.
Mostly, the answer is one of balance - probably most Chinese parents push a bit too hard, and probably most Western parents llow a bit too much leeway.
Also, Chinese are much better (generally) at not falling into the debt trap. Western families often make the mistake of taking on a very large mortgage (right at the edge of what they can afford with both of them working flat out) instead of settling for a more modest home, and then when kids come along, of course they have no choice but to work all hours, leaving no-one with the time to put in the kind of effort described by Amy in this piece, and leaving the parents wracked by guilt about not spending enough time with their kids... Guilt which they try to assuage by letting their kids get their own way. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991625 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991625
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 04:03:03 GMT
Jay Stephens wrote "Good article.Mostly, the answer is one of balance - probably most Chinese parents ..." This forum has not reached 10,000 posts. Not even 7,000, which was my hope for past Saturday. Prof. Chua's book has not cracked #1 in the Amazon bestseller's list. The surprise winner is a book about some kind of new, crazy, sexy diet. Which is not surprising, as diet and sex by themselves sell well, and mixing the two is a recipe for sure success in the USA. Plus it is new, which means that it is different from the previous trillion new sexy diets.
Unfortunately, I haven't been able to post much here, as work is back in full swing. A cursory glance tells me that pretty much every new criticism of Prof. Chua's method has followed the same old hackneyed pattern that had been well challenged and proven wrong in the past. So I didn't miss much.
Someone posted an excellent humor piece by David Brooks, which I also noticed on my own in the New York Times. I have always liked Brooks' crazy talk with no facts behind it, but his extolling of the cafeteria populated by 14 year olds as more of a learning place than the library had me in REAL stitches. I wonder how Brooks would demonstrate his social leadership if he was left alone in one of the poor, gang-violence ridden, minority neighborhoods in border towns and inner cities.
India was competitive, and won another cricket match in South Africa.
My 10 year old and my wife came back from their vacation (boy I missed them!). Today I read Prof. Chua's book with my son, and he was giggling like anything. "Very funny!", is his judgment. However he thinks that the music pieces in Prof. Chua's book are not really that difficult, he has mastered most of them already, and a little practice would be all that is needed to pick the rest up. Sensing an opportunity, I have put up the challenge for him.
That's all folks. Peace out! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991489 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991489
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 03:19:18 GMT
Apratim Sarkar wrote "This forum has not reached 10,000 posts. Not even 7,000, which was my hope for ..." It has to be, as overall suicide rates for Asians is far lower. Still, it would be nice if that were true for all age group and genders. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991483 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991483
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 03:18:01 GMT
Apratim Sarkar wrote "It has to be, as overall suicide rates for Asians is far lower. Still, it would be nice if that ..." "How fortunate for her that she lives in a country where it's okay to have more than one child, and even acceptable that the child is female."
You got that right. Your comment reminds me of an Onion "news" article that read "Chinese mother gives birth to twin daughters, must choose one."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991452 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991452
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 03:07:14 GMT
Greg Cardinale wrote ""How fortunate for her that she lives in a country where it's okay to have ..." "On the other hand parents and grand parents show up at the school to hand feed their kids. HAND FEED! "
They should have used forks and knives. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991431 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991431
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 03:03:02 GMT
Apratim Sarkar wrote ""On the other hand parents and grand parents show up at the school to hand ..." Suicide rate for Asian American women over 25 is 1/3 less than "western" women, according to a comment in NY Times. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991415 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991415
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 02:59:14 GMT
Chunyan Li wrote "Suicide rate for Asian American women over 25 is 1/3 less than &..." Unlike Ms. Chua, I don't consider myself a "tiger." Instead, I'd like to think of myself as a Panda Dad. As an American-born Chinese who was "strongly encouraged" to get good grades, I did things, nevertheless, my way and somehow got into an Ivy League school (okay, Cornell...it's not Yale or Harvard and I did it as a transfer student, but I got in!). I ain't no law professor but I'm pretty happy as a bureaucrat working in a large American city doing good work and raising a five year old girl. Oh, I have dreams for her, but so far, I've been able to pass along my love of reading, imagination and exploration to her. We practice drawing, spelling, a little math...she's clearly not a genius, but she's happy so far, and she'll come up to me and say "Can you read me a story" or ask "How do you spell kindergarten?" I'll have conversations with her, maybe make something up to see how much she's paying attention. I'll do some short homework with her. I'll let her make mistakes and we'll go over a "problem set" together without much anger, anxiety or exasperation (well, not too much). I don't believe in threatening to toss out her toys in order to compel her to get the right answer. Oh, I remember my own mother saying "If you don't finish your homework, I'll smash the t.v.!" Well, I knew she wasn't going to do it. Televisions were pretty expensive back in the 70s. I believe in the power of positive reinforcement: bonus books to read at bedtime, a walk to the park, a big old hug. Yeah, that's me, a Panda Dad. Tiger mothers? I don't know about that metaphor...aren't tigers being hunted to near extinction by the very same Chinese who value them for medicinal purposes? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991401 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991401
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 02:55:31 GMT
Alan Hom wrote "Unlike Ms. Chua, I don't consider myself a "tiger." ..." Don’t’ misread Ms. Chua
Ms. Chua told her stories with a mixture of pride and sarcasm as well as rethinking of her approaches. The ending showed her opinions on the strength of both Chinese and non-Chinese parenting. Superiority is not the tone. The headline (not given by the author, but WSJ’s successful strategy to trigger discussion) is so non-Chinese, lacking the humbleness imbedded in the culture.
Chinese parents don’t believe they are superior. Fierce competition back in China forces them to teach their children to grasp every opportunity for a better education. Those immigrating to this country are further haunted by a strong sense of insecurity. As a result, they impose strict training on their kids. Chinese people don’t trust the Chinese education system, either. They have suspected for more than a century that it must have some mysterious flaws. Father of modern China Sun Yat-Sen studied in Hawaii, the Nationalist leader Chiang Kai-Shek in Japan, and the Communist leader Deng Xiaoping in France. They were among the many parents who sent kids abroad for education. In the past decades, the number of Chinese students studying abroad has increased and their ages have decreased from that of postgraduates to high school kids – also evidence that Chinese parents don’t feel they are superior.
Stories about Chinese-American parents reflect more of their traditions rather than resistance to their new cultural environment. They appreciate the oriental discipline (not only the Chinese, but also Japanese and Korean) as well as Western’s encouragement for creativity and individual developments.
My kids, one born in China and the other in US, both raised in this country, have participated in drama, mock trial, soccer, sleepovers and piano lessons as well. Following Ms. Chua’s “never” list, I can give a “must” one:
1. Drink ginseng soup.
2. Memorize the Chinese poems composed in the Tang Dynasty.
3. Finish the bitter melon (ku gua) no matter how awful you think the taste is.
4. Eat cooked spinach in the amount of seven times the amount you eat meat.
5. Practice Chinese meditation (qi gong) every night since you always complain about your sleeping. Not patient enough? Exactly the reason to do more.
…
To what extent they are enforceable? …Buddha and Confucius bless us.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991370 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991370
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 02:44:57 GMT
Paul Zhang wrote "Don’t’ misread Ms. ChuaMs. Chua told her stories with a mixture of ..." My parents aren't as harsh as Ms. Chua, but they DO have their limits.
It's incredibly important to build up the child's education and discipline before letting them have fun. Yes, there are other ways for children to excel and become successful in life, but I believe that this is the most thorough way.
To a lot of immigrants, education is the most important thing to them. They didn't come here to have fun--they came here to learn and become successful.
When I was in 1st grade up till 6th grade, I had a packed schedule and never had time to have fun. Sometimes I would be able to have playdates with my friends, but that was rare. Unless I had practiced my piano and violin, I was not allowed to go to the playground after school.
This really worked out for me, because as a result, I practiced.
Amy Chua's methods of discipline may be at times scary, but they work out for the best interest of her children. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991349 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991349
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 02:40:04 GMT
Rachel Guen wrote "My parents aren't as harsh as Ms. Chua, but they DO have their limits. It's incredibly ..." Well, Amy Chua is success, isn't she? Not every Tom, Dick and Harry can be Professor at Yale University.
Of course there are many ways to a successful parenting, I guess Amy Chua just show one of the way, but not the only way.
One thing is for sure, it is better to have your kids playing piano at home then he go out and shoot people on the street. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991318 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991318
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 02:29:23 GMT
Zhuang Fu Lai wrote "Well, Amy Chua is success, isn't she? Not every Tom, Dick and Harry ..." While every culture is different- I suppose so is every article.
I am Taiwanese, and given I was born here in Chicago, and my parents were not- our values do contradict each other time to time. Back in Taiwan, the main importance is schooling, and work. Time for play never really truly occurs in their minds (at least my parents) until retirement. It's just how it was known throughout my family's blood for as long as I could remember.
But since growing up here, obviously the way how kids here in the United States are raised, is vastly different of those in let's say Taiwan, China, Korea, Japan, or even other asian countries (anywhere else really as well). My parents and I conflicted with one another from work ethics, to the way how a family should treat others, etc..
Now myself as a 23, employed and educated young professional, I truly appreciate the way how they raised me, no matter how difficult it was. I am able to understand both sides of the spectrum and still be able to succeed in my daily activities of my life without much hardship. Strict parenting and a very rigid upbringing may be the forefront of what my culture is like, but even though my parents don't say intimate words to one another or even to myself such as, "I love you", it doesn't mean it isn't there.
As I stated earlier, every culture is different, I'm sure those of you whom have taken psychology, sociology, or even some economics classes have heard of 'culture-shock'. No matter how strict, or easy going a culture is- we still all somehow function and coexist. Cultures as well as everything else, will always adapt, progress, evolve, and change over time..I really can't say I agree with the title that Chinese mothers are superior, but I can speak from personal experience that I am grateful for my upbringing. I learned what I want to do, and what I do not want to do- when I have children of my own in the future.
Just my two cents.
Sincerely,
Jeffery Liu
www.tpphotos.weebly.com
Royal Circuti Ent./TheAmanti House
CIO/Strategic Business Manager http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991228 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991228
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 02:08:44 GMT
Jeff Liu wrote "While every culture is different- I suppose so is every article. I ..." Unfortunately from what I've seen many of these kids crash and burn. My son had a chinese friend at college who commited suicide. It was absolutely devestating for the guys who knew him. His parents demanded perfection yet he was on his own for the first time making new friends, going to football games, partying and attempting all "A" s in a demanding curriculum. It was too much, he couldn't live up to the standard so he killed himself.
There were a lot of Asian kids who went to high school with our kids, as well. The ones who were able to mix the complex social scene with the academics did great.There were plenty of overachiever Asian girls who were involved in school government, cheer, tennis, golf, charity work, planning the school dances and academics. Watch out, those gals will be running the world! The boys seem to struggle a bit more at blending the Asian work ethic with the American High School social scene. They often seem to be outcasts. They had high grades and could play the violin, but that's it. It makes you wonder how they'll survive the team oriented business culture in the US.
From my experience extreme over parenting often back fires and produces a child who can't transition into independence because someone has been providing the motivation for them. There are plenty of "American" moms who do the same thing. Part of growing up is exploring new things and sometimes failing. Learning how to fail is important. Knowing how to accept failure, evaluate what happened, and restart are key to success. Every successful person I know will tell you of dozens of failures in their lives. Ask top CEOs and the movers and shakers of this country about their path to success and, if they're honest, it will be full of attempts that didn't work. You don't develop that kind of fortitude if failure is never an option.
Good luck Amy.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991212 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991212
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 02:04:22 GMT
Caroline Young wrote "Unfortunately from what I've seen many of these kids crash and burn. My ..." Times have changed. The nagging of Asian parents have become broken records always playing the same thing over and over again. You can do better than this, you're Asian, it's in your genes, you must be first in your class, so and so from church is number one in her class, my friend's son went to Carnegie Hall, but like I said, it's all a broken record. If you look at many Asians now, they're different from what Ms. Chua describes. They have tattoos, have more sex than many Western kids, and even with the strict parenting, they end up opposite of what their parents wished. This old-fashioned parenting needs to adapt a little more and give more freedom otherwise it'll become completely useless. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991171 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991171
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 01:52:30 GMT
Lily Zhang wrote "Times have changed. The nagging of Asian parents have become broken records ..." It's good to learn Amy Chua isn't as strict once her kids have reached teenage years. What's more, she's also stopped using the words "Chinese" and "Westerners" in her interview, instead switching to "immigrant", probably a concious decision to steer her story away from the racial slur happened in the last few days. I have no doubt it's as much a learning experience for her as it is for all of us:
http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/2011/jan/18/qa-yale-law-professor-amy-chua/ http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991152 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991152
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 01:46:42 GMT
Chris Doe wrote "It's good to learn Amy Chua isn't as strict once her kids have ..." Read the comments by Leon Breaux (822 recommendations) and Gary Goldstein, far more informative than the Brooks article and most comments I've read here. Sadly they are both working or teaching in China. Is the US losing talents to China? I will read NY Times more than WSJ now, sorry WSJ.
Groups are not more efficient in solving problems. Look at the politicians.
http://community.nytimes.com/comments/www.nytimes.com/2011/01/18/opinion/18brooks.html?sort=highlights&offset=1
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991135 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991135
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 01:42:41 GMT
Chunyan Li wrote "Read the comments by Leon Breaux (822 recommendations) and Gary Goldstein, far more ..." Ms.Chua's book will be very successful, at least in terms of sales figures, as someone pointed out.
How fortunate for her that she lives in a country where it's okay to have more than one child, and even acceptable that the child is female.
Some of her points are welI taken, such as pushing a child to achieve to demonstrate that you believe in her. And I agree that mastery comes from hard work, and that the mastery is what will give a child confidence. I wonder, though, how Ms. Chua would manage a child with a congenital learning disability or developmental disorder?
Maybe someone has posed that question already; I don't know, because I haven't read the thousands of comments. Uh-oh. I guess that means I'm lazy.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991108 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991108
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 01:33:38 GMT
MARY LEMMA wrote "Ms.Chua's book will be very successful, at least in terms of sales figures, as someone pointed ..." It is one thing to say and another to actually walk the talk. It is a fine line between strict parenting and good parenting. Being too strict nor too liberal will only misguide the child. I guess there are stages in their upbringing where parents need to be a little strict, rather a disciplinarian. Fathers have an equally important role. Parents have to SET AN EXAMPLE. I remember my own parents whipping me occasionally for being super naughty despite few verbal advises/warnings. In retrospect, I am thankful to them...my butt doesn't hurt anymore :-))), since I have learned some valuable lessons along the road and now I know which path to take as I face challenges and choices. Taking the middle path is the key. Parents can do only so much in this day & age, where they are super busy and kids spend more time in schools or watching TV, Internet etc. Good parenting alongside good teachers/schools can influence young minds in a positive way. My country Bhutan has humbly begun to infuse the principle of Gross National Happiness (GNH) into the school curriculum to raise mindful students and eventually produce good human beings (for instance, the classes begin with a brief meditation/staying silent) http://bit.ly/dRu1Wm It is a start!
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991062 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991062
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 01:21:14 GMT
Lot Rinchen wrote "It is one thing to say and another to actually walk the talk. It is a fine line between ..." I found this a highly entertaining read. We clearly need to work on accepting the values of people from other cultures, and learning about their viewpoints. To those of you who didn't catch on, there is a light-heartedness in this piece. It didn't make me "LOL" but I found it was humorous inasmuch as it needed to be to portray the ridiculousness to facets of Chinese parenting - that often work very well.
China has history as far back as 5000BC and has roots in a select set of moral codes. The US is a few hundred years old and already unraveling into chaos by people who keep wanting more and more and more for themselves.
I think regardless of what kind of parents you have, if they keep telling you that they love you, it's hard to not think they are the best parents in the world. As a "Westerner" I'm thankful for my parents who fit the Chinese stereotype described here because I'm not bitter about who I am today. I don't see why we should be taking offense at such an article if we are happy with ourselves.
Thank you Amy Chua - this needed to be published sooner or later! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991060 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991060
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 01:20:54 GMT
Jamie Fahey wrote "I found this a highly entertaining read. We clearly need to work on accepting the ..." I must say that originally, I was angered by the method in which the "Chinese" mother determines what her child will do, and then essentially, forces it upon them. But, I know many children, now successful adults, that were raised like this, with very strong self-esteem. In my opinion, though, a hybrid of the 2 cultural methods would be best. Why must he mother decide that the violin and piano are THE instruments? Why can't the child play a few and then pick 2 himself? And then, YES, do not allow your child to quit or give up. Success IS the best self-esteem builder. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991008 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1991008
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 01:07:19 GMT
Karen Veater Walker wrote "I must say that originally, I was angered by the method in which the "Chinese" ..." I don't think she has a clue; you wasted your time. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990997 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990997
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 01:04:32 GMT
David Wu wrote "I don't think she has a clue; you wasted your time...." this is a terrible article. It's to promote self-righteousness for Chinese mothers who practice these tactics. It sounds uneducated. It just sounds like someone with an idea or an opinion decided to write and write well enough to get her opinion across. Good job. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990952 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990952
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 00:48:23 GMT
Catherine Lee wrote "this is a terrible article. It's to promote self-righteousness for Chinese mothers who practice these tactics. It ..." Probably a little extreme, but definitely very thought provoking.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/18/opinion/18brooks.html?_r=2&ref=columnists
"... I have the opposite problem with Chua. I believe she’s coddling her children. She’s protecting them from the most intellectually demanding activities because she doesn’t understand what’s cognitively difficult and what isn’t.
Practicing a piece of music for four hours requires focused attention, but it is nowhere near as cognitively demanding as a sleepover with 14-year-old girls. Managing status rivalries, negotiating group dynamics, understanding social norms, navigating the distinction between self and group — these and other social tests impose cognitive demands that blow away any intense tutoring session or a class at Yale.
Yet mastering these arduous skills is at the very essence of achievement. Most people work in groups. We do this because groups are much more efficient at solving problems than individuals."
"... I wish she recognized that in some important ways the school cafeteria is more intellectually demanding than the library. And I hope her daughters grow up to write their own books, and maybe learn the skills to better anticipate how theirs will be received. " http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990949 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990949
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 00:47:14 GMT
Chris Doe wrote "Probably a little extreme, but definitely very thought provoking.http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/18/opinion/18brooks.html?_..." What? Chinese educators? What does EDUCATOR mean? someone with a phD who's done the research and actually collected data and will show on a chart who and of what profession liked this article? Your response is as poor as the article. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990944 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990944
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 00:45:36 GMT
Catherine Lee wrote "What? Chinese educators? What does EDUCATOR mean? someone with a phD who's ..." Amy Chua you are genuine human meat grinder and I both applaud and question some of your tactics and I say this all from the perspective of being an Aussie father of 6 and now with a Chinese wife (with 2 children). Rebellion from children is rife in the Western homes and apart from different disciplinary tactics I also tag Facebook, early morning TV, lack of parental training (ie Parents being uneducated about educating children...there's a topic for a new book for you) and freedom of rights by children (with verbal discipline also being classed as verbal abuse) etc etc as constant breaches of parental control/rights and childrens ultimate rebellious behavior. Amy, 3 of my kids have degrees, 1 will in two years, the youngest will as well and one hates me and left home, empowered by an ex wife. I have been around all the time whilst my kids have developed and wish I had the respect that the chinese culture demands...it is just so lacking in western culture PLUS when young boys become young men and the perennial, testosterone fuelled, young buck v's old buck symptoms arrive if respect is not there rebellion and chaos sadly determines many a young mans future and the same time, for some daughters as well. I personally think you are LUCKY. Yes you worked hard, you pounded home the necessities of good education and quality social abilities obviously weren't on drugs or an alcoholic but we must also be mindful that this world needs Good bricklayers, painters, plumbers and electricians etc etc etc etc all without Uni degrees. Were you a good mum, I think so but if I gave you my sons in this environment and you tried the same educational tactics well I would like to see who survived what. Theory in life is a good starting point but when you are toe to toe with a towering 19yo empowered with fresh surges of testosterone and you are doing the shouting, may only see you picked up and deposited out of the way as the steamroller continues on its pursued path. As the Alpha male here I have had to plant my feet firmly against such events at times and in the physical standoff proclaim my rightful position but also suffer the consquences. As a woman you fair much better physically but I can assure you this...apart from having a great responsibility to, and fear of, our creator, Almighty God, 'boundarys' imposed and enforced and a respect earned (in the eyes of our children) not all parents can be as lucky a you have been. Having said all this your stubborn approach to motherhood is both thought provoking and tastefully laced with hidden love. I wonder what your next book will be about ? Send me a copy for a review.. ha. Cheers from Garry in Perth, Australia. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990923 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990923
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 00:40:05 GMT
Garry West wrote "Amy Chua you are genuine human meat grinder and I both applaud and ..." Although I agree with the author that being successful is the ultimate self-confidence booster, there are certain aspects of being a child and certain lessons that must be learned and experience first hand in order to become a truly successful adult. By "overriding" the psyche of the child and replacing it with that of an adult one cripples the child's ability to learn from their own mistakes. One day these children will not have their parents drilling them or forcing them to strive for greatness and then will have to learn difficult lessons much later in life. Give children proper guidance, but telling a child-- of any race, ethnicity or creed-- "you will be good at this"... is cheating them out of learning the fundamentals of how to succeed and condemning them to a life of "fake it 'till you make it." http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990922 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990922
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 00:40:04 GMT
Alisa Grange wrote "Although I agree with the author that being successful is the ultimate self-confidence booster, there are ..." Props to the most mature and educated commenter on this forum http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990902 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990902
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 00:36:29 GMT
Jamie Fahey wrote "Props to the most mature and educated commenter on this forum" I believe that's because many Chinese felt they were misrepresented. Me being one.
Having said that, I don't believe anyone, Chinese or not, should fall into the trap of debating anything ethnically, it's best to leave that out of this forum altogether. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990893 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990893
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 00:32:36 GMT
Chris Doe wrote "I believe that's because many Chinese felt they were misrepresented. Me being ..." No ethnicity is superior - that thinking leads to fascism. We're all distant cousins, and the beauty of life lies in our diverse humanity and different forms of cultural expression.
Has Chua not considered Chinese Buddhism / Taoism - the middle way - rather than these extreme methods to achieve "success"?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990869 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990869
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 00:23:44 GMT
David Tse wrote "No ethnicity is superior - that thinking leads to fascism. We're all distant cousins, and the beauty of ..." My wife works in an elementary school. There are a lot of Chinese families where we live. Its true that the kids study harder than other kids. On the other hand parents and grand parents show up at the school to hand feed their kids. HAND FEED! These kids can be in grade four or five.
Yes some of the Chinese kids excel in school but most have no idea about making decisions for themselves, they can have very little empathy for others or the ability to see the consequences for their actions.
No doubt the chinese moms have some good points but they could also learn a thing or two from other parents around them. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990857 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990857
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 00:20:39 GMT
doug lawrence wrote "My wife works in an elementary school. There are a lot of Chinese families where we ..." I simply think Amy Chua should just tell her story, share her experience and leave as many mentions of "Chinese" and "Western(ers)" out of the context as possible. It can do wonders to carrying her message across. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990794 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990794
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 23:58:09 GMT
Chris Doe wrote "I simply think Amy Chua should just tell her story, ..." Well, actually, the most critical are Chinese. Educators liked this article the best. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990788 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990788
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 23:56:25 GMT
Chen Sun wrote "Well, actually, the most critical are Chinese. Educators liked this article the best." Creativity and Rock and Roll music
The comments on perceived lack of creativity by Chinese (more accurately Asian child-raising) show defensiveness instead of original thought. Most successful creatives and inventors need a solid technical background and a fostering environment. This means, having an engineering degree before inventing new electronics. Having corporate management staff experience and a corporate law environment before building modern corporations. Having ballet training before becoming a world-reknown dancer. Oh, yes, knowing western languages before becoming a world known western author.
Look at the evidence on creativity results-- Mr. Toyoda, Mr. Honda, Mr. Sony, An Wang (his invention of core memory and modern calculators are far more inventive than Steve Job's iPod or iPhone), Computer Associates Wang (CA was, if I recall correctly, the third or fourth largest computer company). Are these the alleged non-creative Asian results? Do the math—simply the numeric production of technically qualified contributes to creative results. Where is the evidence on overall lack of creativity? American WWII Sherman tanks were far less creatively designed than the German Panthers
An easier example can explain this--music. Rock and Roll is certainly among the most creative art forms. And everyone knows there are no major creative Asian Rock and Roll musicians! Would this be good evidence that Asians are lesser creative?
(Even this is untrue. Freddie Mercury, Queen’s lead singer was Indian, and, in my opinion, was among the top five overall R&R 80s creatives.)
Individualistic R&R and its glowing sales seem effective as evidence, until its descendant, rap and hip-hop and their glowing sales, emerges. Rap and hip hop are creative but don’t foster society as much and, frankly, aren’t very “musical”. Continued individualistic music creativity will mean music even more coarse than rap (yes, it is possible).
When we take a look at music, we see creativity results of Western and Eastern:
Western produces great classical musicians with “soul and creativity”, and even far greater numbers of culture-degrading rappers with even more soul and creativity.
Eastern produces far more numbers of classical musicians, mostly lesser souled and creative, and produce a few rap imitators with soul and creativity. But over time, simply because they have the technical background to begin, a few of the Eastern musicians will also be classical greats. The movie “The Red Violin” will explain this.
Bottom line—
1. Underestimating Chinese creativity is defensive. 2. Creativity isn’t the goal—the goal is how does creativity contribute to the overall society.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990772 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990772
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 23:49:42 GMT
Chen Sun wrote "Creativity and Rock and Roll music The comments on perceived lack of creativity by Chinese (more ..." what a GLORIFIED version of a fraction of the truth. No mention that teachers in China may physically punish their students. No mention that Chinese kids in America do worse in general in every subject regardless of their CHINESE parents when compared to Chinese kids IN CHINA who are privileged to continue education beyond elementary school.
The truth is: Chinese women nag, complain, whine, groan, and this is but a small factor of why Chinese students seem to do well. Chinese kids with annoying Chinese mothers tend to have poor self-esteem and lack confidence speaking in public because the rundown they've received since birth.
Let me guess, the majority of the people who liked this post are CHINESE!! Please. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990769 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990769
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 23:48:23 GMT
Catherine Lee wrote "what a GLORIFIED version of a fraction of the truth. No mention that teachers in China may physically ..." It saddened me to read this account of motherhood. As a mother of 4 boys 11-18 yrs of age, I have found that in order to have my children behave as my husband and I would like, we need to be the people we want them to be. If we want them to be respectful to us, we need to be respectful to them. If we want them to have the courage to try new things, we need to have the courage to try new things. If we want them to speak properly, we need to speak properly. This is nothing new. We have all heard the saying that children will listen to what you do and not what you say. I am not saying that there should be no limits set on children, because I firmly believe that we need to teach them correct ways. But the key is that we live what we teach. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990741 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990741
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 23:41:34 GMT
robyn Ritchie wrote "It saddened me to read this account of motherhood. As a mother of 4 boys 11-18 yrs of ..." My thanks to Ms. Chua for her WSJ article, because it
- made me look like an "angel of a mother" (in my kids’ own words)
- made my 12 year old daughter read her first wall street journal article and discuss it with passion ( by the way, she feels for Ms.Chua's girls for such a regimented pressure-cooker of a childhood)
- gave ammunition for me ("will you practise your piano or should I be like that Chinese mom in the article...")
While I did enjoy the humor, I do hope that not allowing a child to eat or pee was just that... but I never know...
On a serious note, it seems that it is Ms .Chua’s gimmick to get free publicity and sell more books. While having your book on the bestseller list is definitely an accomplishment, this kind of value i.e., accomplishment 'at any cost' - certainly will not be a value that I will be imparting to my kids. I do feel sad for Ms Chua's warped sense of self-worth and her belief that self-worth and joy come from a string of accomplishments only.
By the way, I am a first generation immigrant from India, a driven high-tech professional with a A++ personality but I believe in "pushing" oneself towards betterment vs taking it out on the hapless kids and trying to map out their lives to suit my definition of success - it is plain wrong. The value of hard work and best effort is imparted by parents living it, recognizing, and encouraging it in kids vs forcing young minds to mindless rote work and associating it with some random external endorsement. Our role is to introduce kids to various things and encourage and facilitate whatever they show interest in, of course with some guidelines, structure and pats-on-the-back rather than name-calling, belittling and yelling sessions and trust me, it has worked for my son with mercurial temperament and a free strong will!. My pre-teen daughter opened up to me when I backed off from obsessing over her grades and no, her grades have not suffered and she has not become a slacker!
Bottom line, does one want to raise well-rounded world citizens who can function and live under diverse and often adverse situations OR trophy kids that live their parents' dreams since they do not know how to dream or too afraid to do so!
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990737 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990737
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 23:40:50 GMT
geetha arun wrote "My thanks to Ms. Chua for her WSJ article, because it - made me ..." Tracy, if you were an Asian American student, you'd know what the reality is.
According to some research and reports (f.i., http://www.youthoutlook.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=9b609e42b10930a972245c82420869c0), Affirmative Action which supposed to benefit minorities actually seriously hurts Asian students' chance to get accepted to good colleges because the minority defined here doesn't seem to include Asian.
A report called “Admissions and Public Higher Education in California, Texas and Florida: The Post-Affirmative Action Era” found that Asian-American students particularly benefitted from the state of California’s Proposition 209, which banned state entities from using affirmative action in 1996. After the ban’s implementation, for instance, the percentage of Asian Americans at the University of California, Berkeley (UCB) grew from 37.3% in 1995 to 43.6% in 2000. Since then, according to the report, the number and percentage of Asian Americans has reached 46.6% at the school.
Now that those states have banned race-based preferences in college admissions, Asian Americans have emerged as the frontrunners in academia.
http://racerelations.about.com/od/thelegalsystem/a/WhoBenefitsfromAffirmativeActionsBaninUniversities.htm
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990732 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990732
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 23:39:06 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Tracy, if you were an Asian American student, you'd know what the reality is. ..." Three points: what happened to the role of the father? The quiet but firm voice that sculpts our values and... internalized drives? My father was actually born in the year of the tiger - and the principle driver of my academic past - while my mother is the dragon! Also, I'm not hearing any discussion about social class. Working with community college students, I see many who don't fit the mold, or whose parents were too busy working to helicopter over their kids. Lastly, the American ethic is one of glorifying the 'winners' - but given the massive failures of our economic system, and increasing lack of access to higher ed (for the poor), it might be time for a new definition.
Coming from a family that fit the stereotypical brainiac breeder in some ways, I had to define success for myself in new ways. While most of my Stanford classmates have gone on to make millions (and reguarly appear in WSJ), I - a Chinese American daughter - became a counselor and writer. My first book, just published, has taught me the art of patience in a competitive world: http://www.redroom.com/blog/limiaolovett/a-bit-patience-all-it-takes http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990725 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990725
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 23:36:15 GMT
Li Miao Lovett wrote "Three points: what happened to the role of the father? The quiet but firm voice that sculpts ..." Living in China as an expat as well as being self-employed and an avid WSJer, it's difficult to observe the cookie-cutter manufacturing plant of parenting and schooling here, much to the same furor as Ms. Chua, and not think to myself: "this is going to be one hell of a [human capital] farm in which we'll graze for future employees!"
Sarcasm aside, I think this is exactly what Ms. Chua and her counterparts on this side of the Pacific are breeding: robotic non-thinkers who will perpetually shift from one production line to the next - straight A violinists who will eventually toil for B-students who were able to imagine, fail, and lead. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990720 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990720
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 23:34:53 GMT
William Liao wrote "Living in China as an expat as well as being self-employed and an avid WSJer, it's difficult to ..." I'm only 10 years younger than Amy Chua. While growing up in Taiwan, I didn't experience the same strict upbringing she's had, let alone her children's strict upbringing, and the same goes for all of my friends. I have to admit, I didn't really understand some of the facets of the American Chinese community until I read the comments to Amy Chua's article. It's an eye opener I'd like to thank Amy for.
I'll even go as far as saying there's no more boundary between Chinese/Western style of education in modern China any more. No US patent can ever cover liberal, creative thinking, and no country can ever claim extracurricular activities as their own. These practices may be more prevalent in the Western worlds, but they're also well and truly alive in Chinese societies these days. How else could we have produced Yao Ming, Jay Chou and Kai Fu Lee? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990693 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990693
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 23:28:05 GMT
Chris Doe wrote "I'm only 10 years younger than Amy Chua. While growing ..." Just so I'm clear, what if there are two Chinese students in a class? Do they just automatically split the #1 spot fifty-fifty? Perhaps it's a mathematical quandary that the children of these parents can work out.
While I agree that there are characteristics of Chinese parenting that increases a childs level of performance, I've always assumed that Japanese culture is, on a whole, a bit more consistently successful. Sadly, I'm a Westerner, but I turned out okay in spite of my desire to play the drums instead of the violin or piano. Seriously though, this author seems almost too much like a drill sergeant. I have to wonder if she wishes she had a more nurturing and caring upbringing, and perhaps that this article is a form of self therapy to deal with the anger she feels towards her mother. There's a lot of rationalizing going on here.
I do think that a lot of parents excessively dote on their children, and it's downright sickening sometimes. But how can one really rationalize calling their child garbage? That kind of behavior is just trashy, and no one can convince me that there isn't a smarter alternative reprimand than that. Interestingly, the suicide rate in China, and Japan for that matter, is higher than in north America. I'm not saying that it's the parents fault. But I'll bet that this author might.
That said, I do think there are a lot of good take-aways from this perspective. Parents should listen to what works for other parents, and ignore the things that don't work. Academic achievement is important. and it's almost always necessary for a parent to firmly establish the ground rules. This is one area where I agree with the author 100%.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990655 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990655
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 23:20:11 GMT
darren floyd wrote "Just so I'm clear, what if there are two Chinese students in a class? Do they ..." Interesting thoughts, Chris.
Thinking too logically may lead to lack of creativity. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990633 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990633
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 23:10:34 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Interesting thoughts, Chris. Thinking too logically may lead to lack of creativity...." Not even said by author, but a provacative title given by WSJ.
Maybe that's what WSJ wanted. A racial demonization of Chinese/Asian parents because their kids are getting straight As and play too much instruments instead of being violent, early pregnent, using drugs or indulged to various vanity . http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990622 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990622
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 23:06:56 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Not even said by author, but a provacative title given by WSJ. Maybe that's what WSJ ..." Chris, absolutely agree!
In today's China, more and more schools and parents are trying to combine the merits of both western and eaastern education systems together. In China, it's a long time phenomenon that people have been sending their kids to western countries to study. Recently more and more famous western schools (such as Harrow) go to China to set up educational branches. All this phenomenons proved that Chinese people are truly open-minded in receiving and adopting Western educational ideas and they believe the middle ground is the best choice for kids.
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2010/11/09/2003488060
http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/2006/11/12/western_education_booms_in_china/
Another point, the Chinese American is actually a seperate group within the whole global circle of thinic Chinese. Most of the Chinese Americans, especially the kids naturally and automatically get the merits from both cultures. Averagely they would have stricter parents (but not as extreme as Amy Chua described) who don't allow them out of control too much and meantime they also receive the mostly-encouraging and heuristic education from regualr American schools. This kind of combination comes to their way naturally as a benefit for their growth and that's why they thrive and excel in many aspects. Like it or not, I think Asian/Chinese American kids will continue to perform well and most of them will grow up to be peaceful, intelligent, law-abiding and hard working citizens who will be liked by schools, companies and society. That's my personal observation.
Every education tradition has its good or bad side. Nothing shameful to admit it. To me, Chinese traditional method is too passive for kids which means they passively learn from teachers and are not encouraged to think creatively. They have strong academic foundations but are not good at applying the knowledge to the solutions. This is where the strength of American/Western education come into picture. And Chinese/Asian American kids naturally get both. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990589 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990589
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 22:56:24 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Chris, absolutely agree! In today's China, more and more schools and parents are trying to ..." Western upbringing allows kids to fail and in some way "encourages" them to fail e.g. giving out trophies to the worst junior soccer team. In my opinion, the message parents and schools are trying to convey is still a good one, it tells kids to get up and try again; you're never bad until you stop trying.
One of the biggest difference I've observed between Westerners and Chinese is in attitude. Westerners like to get up and go, they learn and quite often fail while they practice but Chinese tend to sit idle until everything's argued over and obvious rewards have been identified. I think that explains why there's no great invention coming out of China in the last 300 years. Many ingenious ideas in the 20th centry are quite accidental, e.g. microwave oven. Only someone who's stupid enough to try something that has absolutely no reason to try can he find a new door waiting to be opened. These ideas are never written in books, they can only be discovered. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990576 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990576
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 22:52:58 GMT
Chris Doe wrote "Western upbringing allows kids to fail and in some way "encourages" them to ..." Disgusting... how banal, one-dimensional and ultimately destructive to children. We, as humans, are multi- faceted... it is not intelligence that is being proposed in this article, it is ignorance to talent in areas that Chua doesn't comprehend. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990571 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990571
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 22:51:36 GMT
Kristine Brandt wrote "Disgusting... how banal, one-dimensional and ultimately destructive to children. We, as humans, are ..." Possibly, a Chinese mother could make a chimpanzee play Chopin. The few spectacular success stories paint over the pain and wasted childhoods of most, including a substantial number of children committing suicide under pressure. The examn robots in China, SIngapore, Japan and Korea lack everything children elsewhere might have. It is therefore safe to disregard this write-up. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990544 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990544
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 22:42:35 GMT
THOMAS KRUEMMER wrote "Possibly, a Chinese mother could make a chimpanzee play Chopin. The few spectacular ..." How sad that so many responders see this education as "rote drills". Just like learning multiplication tables, it all starts with the basics. As a teacher, I absolutely agree that parents are delusional if they think that the "western style of parenting" will increase self- esteem. I remember asking a little boy once what he thought his mother would think of his project (which he'd scribbled hastily). His reply? "Oh, she likes everything I do!" Children have no standards to live up to because parents are afraid to set any for fear their creativity and self-esteem will be shattered. How many families do you know whose children dabble in everything and never get good at anything? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990542 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990542
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 22:42:04 GMT
Theresa Skelly wrote "How sad that so many responders see this education as "rote drills". ..." Well, I am buying Amy Chua's book. If Prof. Chua ever teaches a course on parenting, I'd want my children to take it. Her course could be called SUCCESSFUL PARENTING. America desperately needs this course. In fact, it should be one of the Open Yale courses. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990540 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990540
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 22:41:08 GMT
Jie Wang wrote "Well, I am buying Amy Chua's book. If Prof. Chua ever ..." If we can get rid of our system of quotas and affirmitive action, people such as Miss Chua probably would not be professors at Yale Law - the just as smart or smarter , more well rounded and interesting candidate will get the job. As our country hopefully moves toward merit, her children may face some competition from those who can communicate with many different people , do things in addition to playing the piano and perhaps even like our country in the process. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990487 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990487
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 22:24:24 GMT
tracy chapman wrote "If we can get rid of our system of quotas and affirmitive action, people such as ..." http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2011/01/15/tiger-mother-chua-gets-mixed-reviews-in-china/
"Unlike in the U.S., higher education in China is considered a highly precious resource, available to a minority and accessed for most by means of an intensely competitive national exam. Add to that the pressures of the one-child system, and you have the perfect recipe for hard-line parenting.
Yet many in China, especially in the middle class, have begun to develop an interest in the more free-wheeling child-rearing practices of the West, seen as producing more creative, socially capable and happier children."
I hope Amy Chua is reading this. Even her "loose" definition of "Chinese" is nowhere nearly representative of a very large proportion of the Chinese population. To use very broad strokes to paint a picture of upbringings into 2 extremes adds no value to the debate of parenting, and there's no hiding from which side of the fence she sits on. Whether the article title is chosen by her or WSJ makes absolutely no difference to the controversial content of her story, it's time for her to remove some of the "Chinese" and "Western(er)" in her writings and replace them with "I/We/My" and "Others". http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990312 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990312
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 21:30:41 GMT
Chris Doe wrote "http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2011/01/15/tiger-mother-chua-gets-mixed-reviews-in-china/"..." Ed, wrong place for your post. I heard Chinese president Hu Jintao is coming to USA for a official visit today. CNN says today, if China and the United States had Facebook profiles, their relationship statuses would say "it's complicated."
Maybe you can let him and President Obama hear what you have to say. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990306 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990306
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 21:29:07 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Ed, wrong place for your post. I heard Chinese president Hu ..." They will suffer. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990270 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990270
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 21:20:17 GMT
Emily Schneider wrote "They will suffer." What happens when the children go to college and have to think for themselves? Or don't reach the high expectations their mother puts on them with high level college curriculum? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990267 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990267
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 21:19:04 GMT
Emily Schneider wrote "What happens when the children go to college and have to think for themselves? Or don't ..." As a Haitian- American, i have a similar childhood experience and i can speak for both arguments and can say it's good AND bad. When i say i had strict parents, i mean the extreme version of parenting - i was punished for getting a 96 on a math test because my father felt it was a mistake that i should not have made. I had a 9pm curfew until i was 24 years old. (And no that is not a typo.) Speaking for my youth, i felt i really didn't have one. There were no friends coming over, and no talking girl-talk on the phone ( i was only allowed to use the phone if for whatever reason i needed to call a classmate for an assignment.) While growing up, i felt that my life was MISERABLE. But i'm in my 30s now, and can look beyond what happened and can see that there were benefits and i understood why my parents were so strict - they wanted better for me than they had (my father was a professor at Columbia University and my mother was a doctor so "better" was somewhat off the charts) and knew that i was capable. The downside to this was since i was a child that could not rebel, and really could not interact generally in social situations, i had self esteem issues, confidence issues, and although these are things that should develop from childhood into adulthood, i really didn't start to learn these things until i was in my 20s, which left me book smart, but left me emotionally 'dumb'. My lack of interaction with people outside of the home limited me in a lot of ways, and left me feeling vulnerable and naive. But i am a successful doctor now myself and credit my parents with their dedication to molding me as a productive human being. I see parents these days being a little too lax with their parenting role. However, as a product of a similar upbringing, i wouldn't deviate too far from the author's path, but i also know that it is not the best parenting match for every child. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990265 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990265
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 21:18:46 GMT
Micheline Deneuve wrote "As a Haitian- American, i have a similar childhood experience and i can speak for ..." hahaha Russell, I like you sense of humor. But with so many Chinese people who can read/write/speak fluent English and understand both eatern and western cultures, your chance to be hired as translator would not be very optimistic. ;-)
BTW, how do you define "gentle or charming" relative to a country? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990223 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990223
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 21:08:27 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "hahaha Russell, I like you sense of humor. But with so many Chinese ..." The question is: Are the good grades and perfect piano recitals worth the therapy invoices and lack of personality Amy Chua's children will be forced to deal with when they're older? What matters more, having absolutely "perfect" children, or being loved by them? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990107 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990107
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 20:40:49 GMT
Jeremy Esterman wrote "The question is: Are the good grades and perfect piano recitals worth the therapy invoices and lack of ..." The question is: Are the good grades and perfect piano recitals worth the therapy invoices and lack of personality Amy Chua's children will be forced to deal with when they're older? What matters more, having absolutely "perfect" children, or being loved by them? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990106 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990106
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 20:40:43 GMT
Jeremy Esterman wrote "The question is: Are the good grades and perfect piano recitals worth the therapy invoices and lack of ..." Ah yes, West meets East, again.
You will never win the "compare" game for topics such as raising kids.
The most important results for raising a child is making sure they can survive in the world in which they live.
Regarding China; you really do have to look at the entire Chinese world and take the haves and have-nots and make your own choice over whether certain sacrifices are necessary, obligatory, cultural and spiritual.
Westerners do need to keep a wary eye on the China of today as she beguiles us, advertises to us and coerces us into thinking she is a good corporate and world citizen. She is not. Her leaders are preparing for the conquest of the earth and are willing to wait a thousand years to do it. They have observed and studied how the USA rose to power in less than 300 years and they will, because they can, replicate and surpass our achievements.
The difference is - they won't be gentle or charming when they do have the final upper hand.
My advice? Learn Mandarin ASAP - maybe they will hire you as a translator for their minions of slaves in the next decade or two.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990102 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990102
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 20:39:18 GMT
Russell Walker wrote "Ah yes, West meets East, again. You will never win the "..." True, many people raised in a "western" way or any other way also excel in the work or life. No one-size-fit-all education for every kid in the world. So I think WSJ purposely putting such a title for Amy Chua's book is misleading readers to something racial.
'Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and so on shudder with the cookie cutter Asian applicants that they need to interview for admission'. Hmmmm, so non-Asian American kids don't need to have interviews? Also, with this kind of 'shuddering', I still see disproportionate large crowds of cookie cutter Asian students at Ivy schools including Harvard, Yale, Princeton, UPenn, Stanford etc, what a tragedy for the schools! I think they should do better job to reject cookie cutter Asian students. But how? According to some reports (f.i., http://www.youthoutlook.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=9b609e42b10930a972245c82420869c0), Affirmative Act which supposed to benefit minorities actually seriously hurts Asian students' chance to get accepted to good colleges because the minority defined here doesn't seem to include Asian. What else can we do to reject Asian students? Not considering academic records? or not considering musical or artistic abilities? or maybe simply reject them by their faces? Yep, that's maybe a more effective way to achieve the goal.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990097 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990097
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 20:38:43 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "True, many people raised in a "western" way or any other way ..." It's expected that it is difficult for you to come up with a constructive comment in response to this gentleman's good point, which he clearly made about nonphysical similarities in Asian youth. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990094 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990094
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 20:38:06 GMT
Jeremy Esterman wrote "It's expected that it is difficult for you to come up with a constructive comment in response to this gentleman's good ..." Because she should have been more considerate and not use "Chinese mom" in the title of her article cause a lot of real "Chinese mom" don’t like to categorized with her. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990086 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990086
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 20:35:34 GMT
mandy wu wrote "Because she should have been more considerate and not use "Chinese ..." The Chinese as a group haven't achieved sufficient affluence to become complacent. I believe it was the founder of Barney's who warned presciently about the menace of the "third generation." http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990059 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990059
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 20:28:12 GMT
David C Fischer wrote "The Chinese as a group haven't achieved sufficient affluence to become complacent. I believe it was the ..." """Everybody’s talking about the birthday cards we once made for you, which you rejected because they weren’t good enough. Funny how some people are convinced that Lulu and I are scarred for life. Maybe if I had poured my heart into it, I would have been upset. But let’s face it: The card was feeble, and I was busted. It took me 30 seconds; I didn’t even sharpen the pencil. That’s why, when you rejected it, I didn’t feel you were rejecting me. If I actually tried my best at something, you’d never throw it back in my face. """
Fuss about a birthday card? Give me a break. I would be over the moon if my son ever made me one even if it only has a pencil heart on it! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990035 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990035
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 20:22:11 GMT
mandy wu wrote """"Everybody’s talking about the birthday cards we once ..." Elaine, I absolutely agree with you it's just Amy Chua'e personal parenting experience and has no way to represent the whole Chinese or Asian community. In most of cases, I would admit that Chinese/Asian parents might hold higher expectation or be more demanding on academics, but I have never seen a Chinese parents who parent kids in such an extreme way -- such as not allowing kids to have sleepovers or play dates. This is absolutely beyond the boundary.
But after reading most of her book, watched Amy Chua's interview with MSNBC and read her daughter's letter, I have to admit she is not such an evil mother as many commentors here have concluded. It's just about a mother's journey from the begining to now. It could happen to any mother with any racial background. It's the provacative title of this excerpt from her book that triggered such a hot topic, and to some extent as you can see, becoming a racial discussion.
No matter what, I think how we do parenting is very personal and also varies according to individual kids. The core of any parenting is LOVE. No matter how parents educate their kids, they should first let their kids feel whatever parents do is out of love. And then come to the concrete educating technics. With respect to that, there's an Chinese idiom YIN CAI SHI JIAO which means teaching students in accordance with their aptitude or educating someone according to his natural ability. I think that's the most efficient and successful way of any education. There's no one universal, one-size-fits-all method which can apply to every kid in the world.
If Amy Chua's daughters now turned out to be healthy, intelligent, well educated and responsible citizens and they appreciate their mother's way of educating them, who gave the authority to anyone that can claim Amy Chua is a failed mother and has done mental damage to her daughters and her daughters are inevitably bacoming social retaaards lacking creativity or even suicidal? Isn't that so subjective, judgemental and ridiculous? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990001 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1990001
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 20:10:58 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Elaine, I absolutely agree with you it's just Amy Chua'e personal parenting ..." sorry repeated http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989989 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989989
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 20:07:50 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "sorry repeated" repeated http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989988 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989988
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 20:07:42 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "repeated" Like I say, she is lucky to have those daughters. Maybe her parenting didn't have that much to do, which is the problem I sees in her article. Every child is different and no one parenting style can fit it all. Her daughters are mixed. Like it or not, they are faced with different world then our "Chinese (Asian) children". I hate to say it, my son plays violin and I have a strong feeling the society have higher standard of Asian kids then other races. Cause so many Asian kids do so well in so many areas. Our Asian kids are competing with our own race to be recognized. Ms. Chau’s daughters don’t need to face this kind of competition cause they don’t look Asian. I am sure their western father also balanced it out for them at home. That’s why this article caused so much racial pain. I wish when Ms. Chau choice her wording she would be more considerate. It’s better she used “Extremely demanding mom” or whatever but “Chinese mom”. Cause I am a Chinese mom for sure and I don’t want to be categorized with her. I hope she and her daughters will not only be successful musicians and scholars but caring and loving human beings, too. Thanks for reading. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989987 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989987
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 20:07:40 GMT
mandy wu wrote "Like I say, she is lucky to have those daughters. Maybe her ..." "Amy Chua really needs to understand life is a marathon, not a sprint." So true. Life is very long journey and her kids have just started it. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989983 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989983
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 20:06:55 GMT
Nancy Zhang wrote ""Amy Chua really needs to understand life is a marathon, not a sprint." ..." Elaine, I absolutely agree with you it's just Amy Chua'e personal parenting experience and has no way to represent the whole Chinese or Asian community. In most of cases, I would admit that Chinese/Asian parents might hold higher expectation or be more demanding on academics, but I have never seen a Chinese parents who parent kids in such an extreme way -- such as not allowing kids to have sleepovers or play dates. This is absolutely beyond the boundary.
But after reading most of her book, watched Amy Chua's interview with MSNBC and read her daughter's letter, I have to admit she is not such an evil mother as many commentors here have concluded. It's just about a mother's journey from the begining to now. It could happen to any mother with any racial background. It's the provacative title of this excerpt from her book that triggered such a hot topic, and to some extent as you can see, becoming a racial discussion.
No matter what, I think how we do parenting is very personal and also varies according to individual kids. The core of any parenting is LOVE. No matter how parents educate their kids, they should first let their kids feel whatever parents do is out of love. And then come to the concrete educating technics. With respect to that, there's an Chinese idiom YIN CAI SHI JIAO which means teaching students in accordance with their aptitude or educating someone according to his natural ability. I think that's the most efficient and successful way of any education. There's no one universal, one-size-fits-all method which can apply to every kid in the world.
If Amy Chua's daughters now turned out to be healthy, intelligent, well educated and responsible citizens and they appreciate their mother's way of educating them, who gave the authority to anyone that can claim Amy Chua is a failed mother and has done mental damage to her daughters and her daughters are inevitably bacoming social retaaards lacking creativity or even suicidal? Isn't that so subjective, judgemental and ridiculous? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989980 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989980
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 20:06:42 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Elaine, I absolutely agree with you it's just Amy Chua'e personal parenting ..." Elaine, I absolutely agree with you it's just Amy Chua'e personal parenting experience and has no way to represent the whole Chinese or Asian community. In most of cases, I would admit that Chinese/Asian parents might hold higher expectation or be more demanding on academics, but I have never seen a Chinese parents who parent kids in such an extreme way -- such as not allowing kids to have sleepovers or play dates. This is absolutely beyond the boundary.
But after reading most of her book, watched Amy Chua's interview with MSNBC and read her daughter's letter, I have to admit she is not such an evil mother as many commentors here have concluded. It's just about a mother's journey from the begining to now. It could happen to any mother with any racial background. It's the provacative title of this excerpt from her book that triggered such a hot topic, and to some extent as you can see, becoming a racial discussion.
No matter what, I think how we do parenting is very personal and also varies according to individual kids. The core of any parenting is LOVE. No matter how parents educate their kids, they should first let their kids feel whatever parents do is out of love. And then come to the concrete educating technics. With respect to that, there's an Chinese idiom YIN CAI SHI JIAO which means teaching students in accordance with their aptitude or educating someone according to his natural ability. I think that's the most efficient and successful way of any education. There's no one universal, one-size-fits-all method which can apply to every kid in the world.
If Amy Chua's daughters now turned out to be healthy, intelligent, well educated and responsible citizens and they appreciate their mother's way of educating them, who gave the authority to anyone that can claim Amy Chua is a failed mother and has done mental damage to her daughters and her daughters are inevitably bacoming social retaaards lacking creativity or even suicidal? Isn't that so subjective, judgemental and ridiculous? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989971 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989971
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 20:04:35 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Elaine, I absolutely agree with you it's just Amy Chua'e personal parenting ..." Nancy,
I appreciate your comments. I think it is really a shame that this article was published. It is certainly controversial, and perhaps that is what the journal was after--attention--but there is enough prejudice in this world already without something like this that promotes divisive stereotypes like this one. I hope that the majority of Journal readers are intelligent enough to recognize this article for what it is. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989963 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989963
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 20:02:33 GMT
Dawn Baxter wrote "Nancy, I appreciate your comments. I think it is really a shame that this article was ..." What a shame. I know plenty of people raised in a "western" way, and they are very successful, well-rounded, ivy league graduated, business owning, and creative individuals. This unfortunate way of raising your child "chinese" takes away all individuality and freedom of imagination and creativity. This is why when top alumnus of places like Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and so on shudder with the cookie cutter Asian applicants that they need to interview for admission. They're all the same, down to the instruments they play, and are not allowed to play. When is the last time we saw a major Chinese leader as the CEO of a top United States tech company? There's certainly a disproportionate amount of them working at these companies! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989942 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989942
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 19:57:26 GMT
GREGORY PARTENACH wrote "What a shame. I know plenty of people raised in a "western" way, and they are ..." Mandy, I agree with you that is very sad. I don't have kids but I was grown up in HK. I am living in US for 15 years. I do not like the Chinese parenting at all. When I was young, my mom always comments I am useless. stupid. My oldest brother always step me down. I really believe I am stupid years ago. I never thought I could have a college degree. My mon just discouraged me so bad. I feel terrible about Amy Chau's daughters. What make she think her daughters must be get all As in school? Because she got so much education? If her daughters did bot do well at school, does it make this mom (Amy Chau) feels bad or shame? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989850 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989850
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 19:32:30 GMT
Celine Bare wrote "Mandy, I agree with you that is very sad. I don't have kids but ..." It is interesting to note how many people feel that the concept of being “strict” somehow causes the child to be limited in their lives. My definition would be that my children understand there needs to be order in the house. This in no way negates open and constructive criticism of my raising techniques as they get older. I continue to encourage my kids to talk with me about things they disagree with.
The other factor that plays heavily into parenting is your spiritual stand. Now I know most people do not like to bring up God in a public forum…but…what you teach your kids to believe has everything to do with their moral outlook on how they treat you and the world they live in. I do not feel there is just one way to raise kids. But I do feel Parents can convey the need for order and discipline, at the same time showing them how to respectfully challenge things in life they oppose.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989836 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989836
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 19:29:56 GMT
Mike White wrote "It is interesting to note how many people feel that the concept of being “strict” somehow ..." Alan,
What is Chinese parenting? I don't think there is a definitive answer. I also don't think Ms. Chua represents Chinese parenting. She represents a type of person or parent that I find distasteful and pretentious. As a Chinese parent I reject her portrayal of parenting style as a representation of us as a larger group. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989827 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989827
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 19:28:21 GMT
Nancy Zhang wrote "Alan,What is Chinese parenting? I don't think there is a definitive answer. I ..." Just as this piece can't speak for all experiences, neither can I. But my mother, an immigrant, was a slightly more relaxed version of the Chinese mother. There was the same insistence on academic success. Fortunately, academics came rather easily to me. Still, I knew I lacked social skills, and never had a solid support system. With college applications in senior year, I turned into a complete wreck. After having felt suicidal for months, I was finally diagnosed with depression and GAD. My mother's control over how I was treated created a lot of problems, and it was only in my second year at college (at a top tier school), that I felt like I could take control over my own illness and seek help. My sister, who my parents are more relaxed with, is much more independent and as of yet has no mental issues. I don't blame my mother for my diagnosis, but I feel as though an emphasis on independence and self-directed motivation would have served me a lot better. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989818 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989818
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 19:26:33 GMT
Gary Oak wrote "Just as this piece can't speak for all experiences, neither can I. But my ..." Continues...
----------------------------------------------
When I got to high school, you realized it was time to let me grow up a little. All the girls started wearing makeup in ninth grade. I walked to CVS to buy some and taught myself how to use it. It wasn’t a big deal. You were surprised when I came down to dinner wearing eyeliner, but you didn’t mind. You let me have that rite of passage.
Another criticism I keep hearing is that you’re somehow promoting tunnel vision, but you and Daddy taught me to pursue knowledge for its own sake. In junior year, I signed myself up for a military-history elective (yes, you let me take lots of classes besides math and physics). One of our assignments was to interview someone who had experienced war. I knew I could get a good grade interviewing my grandparents, whose childhood stories about World War II I’d heard a thousand times. I mentioned it to you, and you said, “Sophia, this is an opportunity to learn something new. You’re taking the easy way out.” You were right, Tiger Mom. In the end, I interviewed a terrifying Israeli paratrooper whose story changed my outlook on life. I owe that experience to you.
There’s one more thing: I think the desire to live a meaningful life is universal. To some people, it’s working toward a goal. To others, it’s enjoying every minute of every day. So what does it really mean to live life to the fullest? Maybe striving to win a Nobel Prize and going skydiving are just two sides of the same coin. To me, it’s not about achievement or self-gratification. It’s about knowing that you’ve pushed yourself, body and mind, to the limits of your own potential. You feel it when you’re sprinting, and when the piano piece you’ve practiced for hours finally comes to life beneath your fingertips. You feel it when you encounter a life-changing idea, and when you do something on your own that you never thought you could. If I died tomorrow, I would die feeling I’ve lived my whole life at 110 percent.
And for that, Tiger Mom, thank you.
- Sophia Chua-Rubenfeld
Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/entertainment/why_love_my_strict_chinese_mom_uUvfmLcA5eteY0u2KXt7hM#ixzz1BPr0nQ2w
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989800 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989800
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 19:23:07 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Continues... ---------------------------------------------- When I got to high school, you realized it was time to let ..." Thank you, Nancy, Mandy and other supporters.
To all non-chinese folks, what Amy wrote was just her unique style of parenting and perhaps a part of her own upbringing which she experienced as a child. There are some bad parenting styles of chinese moms just like what she describes, but that goes with any bad ones you can find in all ethnics. I’m a Christian. I believe that God gives talents to everyone. Having that kind of parenting style like Amy’s does not create academic success or musical talent like those found in her children. Amy has been blessed with talented and bright children Yet, she attributes all her children’s successes to her own parenting sytle. I’m really sad to hear that!
Remember, eastern regiment on bringing up children maybe more conservative , but definitely, not abusive. In this case, a lot of what Amy said in her article are just a bunch of purely cold, inappropriate and insane consequences for the children.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989796 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989796
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 19:22:24 GMT
Elaine Yeh wrote "Thank you, Nancy, Mandy and other supporters. To all non-chinese folks, ..." Shouldn't we first listen to what Amy Chua's daughter has to say...
-----------------------------------------
Dear Tiger Mom,
You’ve been criticized a lot since you published your memoir, “Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother.” One problem is that some people don’t get your humor. They think you’re serious about all this, and they assume Lulu and I are oppressed by our evil mother. That is so not true. Every other Thursday, you take off our chains and let us play math games in the basement.
But for real, it’s not their fault. No outsider can know what our family is really like. They don’t hear us cracking up over each other’s jokes. They don’t see us eating our hamburgers with fried rice. They don’t know how much fun we have when the six of us — dogs included — squeeze into one bed and argue about what movies to download from Netflix.
I admit it: Having you as a mother was no tea party. There were some play dates I wish I’d gone to and some piano camps I wish I’d skipped. But now that I’m 18 and about to leave the tiger den, I’m glad you and Daddy raised me the way you did. Here’s why.
A lot of people have accused you of producing robot kids who can’t think for themselves. Well, that’s funny, because I think those people are . . . oh well, it doesn’t matter. At any rate, I was thinking about this, and I came to the opposite conclusion: I think your strict parenting forced me to be more independent. Early on, I decided to be an easy child to raise. Maybe I got it from Daddy — he taught me not to care what people think and to make my own choices — but I also decided to be who I want to be. I didn’t rebel, but I didn’t suffer all the slings and arrows of a Tiger Mom, either. I pretty much do my own thing these days — like building greenhouses downtown, blasting Daft Punk in the car with Lulu and forcing my boyfriend to watch “Lord of the Rings” with me over and over — as long as I get my piano done first.
Everybody’s talking about the birthday cards we once made for you, which you rejected because they weren’t good enough. Funny how some people are convinced that Lulu and I are scarred for life. Maybe if I had poured my heart into it, I would have been upset. But let’s face it: The card was feeble, and I was busted. It took me 30 seconds; I didn’t even sharpen the pencil. That’s why, when you rejected it, I didn’t feel you were rejecting me. If I actually tried my best at something, you’d never throw it back in my face.
I remember walking on stage for a piano competition. I was so nervous, and you whispered, “Soso, you worked as hard as you could. It doesn’t matter how you do.”
Everybody seems to think art is spontaneous. But Tiger Mom, you taught me that even creativity takes effort. I guess I was a little different from other kids in grade school, but who says that’s a bad thing? Maybe I was just lucky to have nice friends. They used to put notes in my backpack that said “Good luck at the competition tomorrow! You’ll be great!” They came to my piano recitals — mostly for the dumplings you made afterward — and I started crying when I heard them yelling “bravo!” at Carnegie Hall.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989791 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989791
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 19:20:19 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Shouldn't we first listen to what Amy Chua's daughter has to say... ..." Mandy, I am moved by your thoughtful comments and I can relate to your experience. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989781 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989781
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 19:18:17 GMT
Nancy Zhang wrote "Mandy, I am moved by your thoughtful comments and I can relate to ..." Don't forget, even before this article with provacative title given by WSJ, Asian/Chinese parents have already received bad stereotype of parenting from mainstream society and it has always racial when talking about this stereotype.
Nothing is perfect in this world including how to be good parents. If you want to find problem in one thing, you can always find it. Sometimes I can't help wondering, while most of Chinese kids/youth are peaceful, well-educated, hard-working, law-abiding citizens and the Asian Americans as a group is often referred as Model Minority, what's so wrong about Chinese parenting?
Sometimes in human society, excellence is just a crime. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989748 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989748
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 19:08:49 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Don't forget, even before this article with provacative title given by WSJ, Asian/..." I don't think being strict on a certain level necessarily diminishes a child's ability to think for his(oe her)self. However, if a child is taught to obey her parents and her teachers absolutely, it stifles free thinking. I was raised in China back in the seventies and eighties (btw, the way parents in China are raising their children has changed quite a lot in recent, more prosperous decades), and I do agree with Peter to some extend. I find myself reluctant to question authority, and general in awe in front of higher powers. I think every parent struggles to find that middle ground, to raise responsible, skilled human beings who can also be creative and leaders http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989728 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989728
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 19:05:10 GMT
Nancy Zhang wrote "I don't think being strict on a certain level necessarily diminishes a child's ..." I'm not sure how Amy Chua's child raising techniques will work out in the long run. One thing that must be said though, is that she's very good at generating publicity for her new book. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989722 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989722
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 19:02:59 GMT
TIM CLANCY wrote "I'm not sure how Amy Chua's child raising techniques will work out in the ..." Hi Richard,
You still haven't said much about what "active parenting" means. Beating children seems in your definition as well as anything else. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989684 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989684
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 18:55:55 GMT
Terry Lake wrote "Hi Richard,You still haven't said much about what "..." Have you even read the book?
BTW, the tilte 'Chinese Mother are superior' here was imposed by WSJ, not Prof. Chua.
Though I agree she's an just a strict American mother who can not represent Chinese Mothers at all.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989682 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989682
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 18:55:29 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Have you even read the book? BTW, the tilte 'Chinese Mother are superior' ..." This is a wake up call. The Chinese are eating our lunch by ignoring the feel good fake social science that US/Western academics have been manufacturing for years. For years we sloughed off the superior performance of the Chinese by saying that they were stifling creativity and later in life they burn out, fail to achieve because they only know how to work. The feel good fake praise crowd also brought us welfare and teacher tenure which brought us a whole segment of the population that can't and won't work and an educational system where the teachers are the most ignorant people in the classroom. I constantly hear business business leaders complain of "cheap labor" as the reason Chinese companies are killing them. Of course, the real reason is they are getting outworked at every level. Compare what a Chinese seamstress does in an hour to what a person here does- even if the pay was the same they would be producing goods at half the price. And how about the middle management sales and marketing and technical folks - same thing. Tough love and hard work works. Get over it. Our thinking only works in Walt Disney animated movies. The Chinese are preparing themselves to win in the real world - where there is another Chinese kid around every corner trying to outwork you . But I am sure Yale would prefer a more creative and flexible person on staff to teach their kids - oops, maybe not. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989675 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989675
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 18:54:24 GMT
Thomas Wilkinson wrote "This is a wake up call. The Chinese are eating our lunch by ignoring the feel good ..." Hi Amy,
Yes some kinds of sports to restrict the amount of time to take breaks. However a couple of things the timetable is known to the child so they can say beforehand or after take a break. This does not seem to be the case, the child was given a task and without a timetable so they had no opportunity to prepare. It's thoughtless and insensitive.
The other thing is that I don't know a sport that wouldn't allow for someone to urinate. The point here is that refusal could result in something rather humiliating for the child. Which is kind of why it's rarely restricted. So how is asking someone to resist the urge to urinate on themselves different than using humiliation to mold their behavior. I think it's not much a stretch to consider those who have no trouble wielding humiliation as a tool to modulate behavior as abusive. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989669 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989669
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 18:53:29 GMT
Terry Lake wrote "Hi Amy,Yes some kinds of sports to restrict the amount of time to take ..." We should form an "Offended Chinese Mom" group! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989649 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989649
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 18:50:28 GMT
mandy wu wrote "We should form an "Offended Chinese Mom" group!" Elaine, I agree with you completely. Amy Chua has given Chinese parents a bad rep. I hope people who read this article and unfortunately, her book, will be able to make the distinction between Amy Chua, an incredibly arrogant and narrow-minded individual who happened to be a second generation Chinese, and the Chinese community at large. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989623 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989623
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 18:46:13 GMT
Nancy Zhang wrote "Elaine, I agree with you completely. Amy Chua has given Chinese ..." When I first read the article about “Why Chinese mothers are more superior”, I felt awfully offended. The story feels so exaggerated and sounds so stereotypic from one individual’s point of view that it almost reminds me of the era when Chinese is believed to be only capable of doing laundry or restaurant services. It’s almost hard for me to fathom a well-educated mother who has spent a good deal of her life in the us will perform a parenting style which is prevalent in the Chinese society about 50 years ago.
I’m chinese educated in Hk . I have a daughter who was born here in the United States and is currently a 7th grader. I know quite a few chinese moms around me and I don’t see this extreme style of parenting. Chinese people do put a lot of focus in academics, similarly to, the westerners who place a lot of emphasis on athletics and social skills. There is an element of hard work in our dictionary and we often teach our kids about that word to build up their characters. Trashing a child’s toy if she/he doesn’t perform at the level of a parent ‘s desire is purely abusive. Claiming the child has too much homework to do and not be able to attend a sleepover may just be an excuse of the chinese family who is not comfortable with the environment of the family that is hosting this activity. Most chinese parents, particularly those who have been educated in the US often like to see a balance in their child’s academic and social pursuits. They make their kids work hard in all disciplines but definitely not to the point of insanity.
I personally feel very disappointed that this book is written with a viewpoint so polarized and unsubstantiated. I don’t know if the author has done extensive researches and interviews of the Chinese moms in US and overseas. But one thing the author has successfully created is a controversy about her book. I know I’m not going to buy and read the book because all it sounds is more like “Poor Parenting Styles of Chinese Mothers”. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989605 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989605
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 18:42:32 GMT
Elaine Yeh wrote "When I first read the article about “Why Chinese mothers are more ..." Exactly Michael, this why many of the posts here really confused me a lot.
Amy Chua is a USA born and raised American. Her parents were ethinically Chinese but came from Philippines decades ago. They might still have some Chinese traditions or traits in the family but to the generation of Amy Chua, I don't think it has much to do with China any more. Why these people kept getting China or even China's politics into this American parenting topic?
Ignorant~ http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989594 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989594
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 18:40:55 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Exactly Michael, this why many of the posts here really confused me a lot. ..." When I first read the article about “Why Chinese mothers are more superior”, I felt awfully offended. The story feels so exaggerated and sounds so stereotypic from one individual’s point of view that it almost reminds me of the era when Chinese is believed to be only capable of doing laundry or restaurant services. It’s almost hard for me to fathom a well-educated mother who has spent a good deal of her life in the us will perform a parenting style which is prevalent in the Chinese society about 50 years ago.
I’m chinese educated in Hk . I have a daughter who was born here in the United States and is currently a 7th grader. I know quite a few chinese moms around me and I don’t see this extreme style of parenting. Chinese people do put a lot of focus in academics, similarly, to the westerners who place a lot of emphasis on athetics and social skills. There is an element of hard work in our dictionary and we often teach our kids about that word to build up their characters. Trashing a child’s toy if she/he doesn’t perform at the level of a parent ‘s desire is purely abusive. Claiming the child has too much homework to do and not be able to attend a sleepover may just be an excuse of the chinese family who is not comfortable with the environment of the family that is hosting this activity. Most chinese parents, particularly those who have been educated in the US often like to see a balance in their child’s academic and social pursuits. They make their kids work hard in all disciplines but definitely not to the point of insanity.
I personally feel very disappointed that this book is written with a viewpoint that is so polarized and unsubstantiated. I don’t know if the author has done extensive researches and interviews of the Chinese moms in US and overseas. But one thing the author has successfully created is a controversy about her book. I know I’m not going to buy and read the book because the story sounds more like “Poor Parenting Styles of Chinese Mothers”.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989584 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989584
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 18:38:59 GMT
Elaine Yeh wrote "When I first read the article about “Why Chinese mothers are more ..." I am an Asian mother and I can’t help but feel offended by Ms. Chua’s article. I think there are so many comments just because a lot of Asian are offended if you read the comments. The stereotyping of Asian parents are already bad. Asian parents has bad reputation already and she is making a bad situation even worse. I am sorry she has to go to this extreme so her daughters can achieve her so called “success“.
I am sure there are many individuals have the same if not more achievements without their “Tiger Parents”. I don’t say her parenting is good or bad, but it’s “sad” . 1st of all, she doesn’t even qualify for a “Chinese mother”. She was raised in American and she married a white husband and her daughters are mixed. I grew up in Taiwan. My father is very controlling. My older brother has stuttering problem. Now I am older and I realize my brother’s stuttering and a lot of our mental issues are caused by my father. When I was a teenager, I decided not to have children cause I don’t want my children to experience this painful world. But I met a wonderful free spirited young man in college, (National Taiwan University, the best University in Taiwan, for your reference). His father is an alcoholic and his mother didn’t have a high school diploma. (He still managed to go to the same best college as I did. That says it all.) I then realized how people can live freely without package and be truly happy for who they are.
Now he is my husband and we have a wonderful 16-year-old son. My son had a wonderful childhood. He is rebellion and I had to yell at him at times. Cause his personality is just like my husband and I. That’s why this “tiger Parenting” won’t work for everybody. Even if you think it worked, the child succeed in violin, piano, or academically, the overall metal well-being is damaged, admit it or not. I have anxiety problems, for example. I used to wonder a lot of Asians are raised this way, why they still want to impose this to their children. Now I realize they just don’t get it. They are so brain washed and can’t see any other ways. Have you think about even her daughter’s thought of ‘I won’t be where I am if not for her’ is embedded in her brain by her mother but not her own? I do believe Asians or whatever cultures have similar value need to “break the cycle”. I think Ms. Chua and people like her just don’t get it. They don’t know how much they missed. Of cause going to Ivy league colleges and playing in carnegie hall is successful and admirable. But they are only one kind of achievements and there are a lot more to it. I can’t help but feel Ms. Chua is shallow to even feels proud of the way she parents her children and the needs to brag about it. Maybe there are some mental issues for Ms. Chua to weight so heavily in those areas of her life. Or maybe she and her daughters are just “superior” human beings can endure years of abuse and still be well rounded not like me. I prey for the later.
I wish Ms. Chua realizes how lucky she is and gives her daughters more credits than she had given herself. I am a Chinese mother with a teenage son. Every child is an individual and responds differently. My son started rebelling my parenting from a very young age and mine is nothing compares to hers. Good for her that it worked for her daughters. She should show more appreciation. Her parenting might not have done that much than she thinks. Her Daughters are simply wonderful. That's it! I am sure her parenting will not work for everybody. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989570 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989570
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 18:36:10 GMT
mandy wu wrote "I am an Asian mother and I can’t help but feel offended by Ms. ..." I find Mrs. Chua's article utterly offensive, to me, a Chinese Mother. She does not represent my values or my beliefs. She is just a narrow-minded individual who has failed to appreciate the strengths of parenting styles different from the one with which she was raised. It's sad to see how the discussions are turning into racial discussions. People just assume this is how Chinese parents regard western parenting styles, which is utterly, absolutely, untrue.
Amy Chua claims that she is doing this for her daughter's sake. However, if you read up on any book about ego, you will know that ego-centric people regard their children as an extension of their own ego and therefore need to control and show off their children as well.
I urge the readers of this article to please make a distinction between Amy Chua, an arrogant individual, who writes a racially discriminative book and the Chinese community at large. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989566 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989566
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 18:35:11 GMT
Nancy Zhang wrote "I find Mrs. Chua's article utterly offensive, to me, a Chinese Mother. ..." I find Mrs. Chua's article utterly offensive, to me, a Chinese Mother. She does not represent my values or my beliefs. She is just a narrow-minded individual who has failed to appreciate the strengths of parenting styles different from the one with which she was raised. It's sad to see how the discussions are turning into racial discussions. People just assume this is how Chinese parents regard western parenting styles, which is utterly, absolutely, untrue.
Amy Chua claims that she is doing this for her daughter's sake. However, if you read up any book about ego, you will know that ego-centric people regard their children as an extension of their own ego and therefore need to control and show off their children as well.
I urge the readers of this article to please make a distinction between Amy Chua, an arrogant individual, who writes a racially discriminative book and the Chinese community at large. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989565 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989565
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 18:35:04 GMT
Nancy Zhang wrote "I find Mrs. Chua's article utterly offensive, to me, a Chinese Mother. ..." Do you feel being stricter with your kids somehow diminishes these things? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989536 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989536
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 18:29:15 GMT
Mike White wrote "Do you feel being stricter with your kids somehow diminishes these things?..." Assuming you are an Indian, don’t forget Indian has a long list of inventions. Based on Wiki, zero concept is one of them.
Probably being colonized for too long, sad.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989521 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989521
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 18:26:10 GMT
David Wu wrote "Assuming you are an Indian, don’t forget Indian has a long list of inventions. ..." Yes in 2009 Shanghai and Hong Kong for the PISA are in the top deciles for all three fields (however they were nowhere on the list in 2000-2003. Perhaps they didn't participate. I wouldn't think too much about having the top score though for rather obvious reasons. The fact that Canada is in the same decile is probably more impressive. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989513 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989513
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 18:24:50 GMT
Terry Lake wrote "Yes in 2009 Shanghai and Hong Kong for the PISA are in the top deciles for all three ..." Maybe but maybe not. China has in some pretty specific areas the most laughable ridiculous journals I have ever read. For example, I've mentioned before the West has had RCT's showing that specific modalities of Acupuncture are worthless for decades. From 1966 to 1995 China has almost never, in all it's medical journals found Acupuncture to be equal or less effect than placebo.
My favorite is the journal article (which I had to read in Chinese) about psychic teleportation. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989451 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989451
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 18:10:33 GMT
Kim Eagles wrote "Maybe but maybe not. China has in some pretty specific areas the most laughable ..." That is not true at all. China produced 15 major inventions per century that significantly changed the world. It was the political upheavals of the last 100 years that slowed the pace down. Which civilization ( out of 5000 years) does not have its ups and downs? 10%of Silicon Valley CEOs are Chinese, and let's not forget Jerry Yang and CEO of Baidu (largest search engine in China), and the fastest computer.
For those who live by the Bill Gates myth, he programmed for over 10,000 hours, more than anyone else (except Steve Jobs) in the world at that time. Watch the Social Network movie to find out Mark Zukerburg's social skills. Amy Chua is not talking about creativity, but "success" as you listed. Who wouldn't want those? Go figure the odds of raising the next Bill Gates. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989418 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989418
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 18:03:02 GMT
Chunyan Li wrote "That is not true at all. China produced 15 major inventions per century that significantly ..." This kind of parenting generates very skilled, very obedient people. The child learns all kinds of skills, above all, to obey or face sanctions. One sees the political result in China, a nation of highly skilled people who enjoy no political freedom whatsoever. So the question about what constitutes successful parenting hinges on the question "What are human beings for"? And that question isn't addressed by Ms. Chua, who seems certain of the answer. But when we address the political dimension of child rearing, the need to define success, excellence, and so on arises with urgent force. What about the skills of independent thought, questioning authority, demanding personal autonomy, speaking truth to power, and so on? What about the skills of recognizing that it's sometimes right to disobey orders, refuse to conform, and criticizing the existing hierarchy? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989363 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989363
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 17:55:33 GMT
Peter Fettner wrote "This kind of parenting generates very skilled, very obedient people. The child learns ..." double post sorry :)
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989346 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989346
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 17:51:52 GMT
Mike White wrote "double post sorry :)" A very good heart, but with an uneducated brain. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989332 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989332
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 17:49:43 GMT
David Wu wrote "A very good heart, but with an uneducated brain." Dear Mom,
When I was practicing violin, I caught a glimpse of my hands on the window. They are huge, glove-size hands compared to when I was little. My vocabulary is improving, and I feel more mature and dependable. I am ready to enter the world.
But I don't want to.
Sure, I look forward to things like driving, playing on the high- school sports team, hanging out with a girl friend, but right now, lying on my bed in a clustered room littered with clothing--I realize that this is life as I know it.
The hours you and Arnold were gone I was so, very lonely. It seems like the two of you have an aura of essence that follows you wherever you go. Arnold's aura is, of course, his constant yapping, his exaggerated (I can never spell it right) complaints, and laughing. Your aura is definitely that sweet, radiant smile that never fails to lift my spirits. You don't know how much I appreciate it, even when you merely lift the corners of your mouth; it's a smile.
I don't know what I'll do without these two haloes of light filling the house.
I was also amazed at your evolutionized aloofness in our sports and violin. I don't think aloofness is the right word, but this is my interpretation: you still care, but know that Arnold and I are not trying to impress you. Instead of seeing us as your sons, you sit back, relax, and enjoy a performance.
Mom, I want you to know that your evolution is awesome.
My wife is going to be just like you, strict but caring, critical but forgiving, not only a mother, but also a best friend.
I will tell my kids about you and visit you very often. I'll have discussions with my kids like you did with me. (By the way, I really appreciated those talks.)
It may be a worn-out saying, but you are the best mother in the world.
With lots of love,
Austin Jia (posted with permission) http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989327 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989327
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 17:49:28 GMT
Chunyan Li wrote "Dear Mom,When I was practicing violin, I caught a glimpse of my ..." I am a father of five and our twins just turned 21. My third son is graduating this year, and starting a private art school. I have been accused by many of my friends as being too strict, mainly because we have not had TV in our house in over 15 years. Oh sure we rent shows, but the idiot box with its flood of advertising, sexually orientated daytime shows and the news does not flood our daily lives.
If your one that feels the thought of raising your kids with the strict attitude of Eastern society is a bit too much, just start by removing the TV from your lives. My kids have had no choice but to interact with each other, read more, and learn to be more creative. When the parents are responsible for a major part of the input then kids are bound to follow in their footsteps. In my humble opinion FAR too many American parents leave their kids education and mental growth to the TV and the public schools. And we wonder why our nation’s youth is going so sideways when we have been letting total strangers influence them and Parents don’t bother to keep things in check.
Parenting takes a lot of work and time to be successful. Anyone who feels it is ok to let their kids live on the internet, or watch whatever they want on TV is giving up on actually raising them. I do not mean to sound so critical, it is just after 21 years of raising my own kids, I have seen so many parents give up on truly staying involved with their kids. I do not subscribe to the complete Eastern regiment that is offered in this article, but I do see the benefits of being stricter with our kids.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989313 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989313
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 17:45:59 GMT
Mike White wrote "I am a father of five and our twins just turned 21. My ..." Chinese culture ensures almost all their kids are successful. The term "successful" means above average financial status, stable job, solid education. But did the Chinese system produce any Nobel Laureate, a Mark Zuckerbug, a Steve Jobs, a Bill Gates, a Larry Page or even an Indira Nooyi (Indian woman CEO of PEPSI)? The answer is a resounding NO. Chinese system does not encourage Creativity. Rote Learning and discipline does not match Creative Genius. Western system inspite of its issues is still by far the most successful system in human history. Almost 100% of science and technological innovation is from westerners. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989300 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989300
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 17:42:30 GMT
Sudhakar Sachidanandam wrote "Chinese culture ensures almost all their kids are successful. The term "successful" ..." Psych is mostly bullcrap. Anyone with half a clue in statistics can tell you that. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989284 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989284
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 17:38:47 GMT
Jonathan Yin wrote "Psych is mostly bullcrap. Anyone with half a clue in statistics can tell you that...." It seems the esteemed Professor Chua skipped her Psych 101 class where she would have learned that this kind of behavior fulfills her needs, not her children's needs. And by the way, anyone see the latest statistics on happiness, depression, suicide etc? We've got you beat, sweetie! How about per capita income as a measure of success? Or maybe you'd like to try wealthiest nation, number of millionaires? Pick a study, any study. Now you'll excuse me while I run to a Chinese embassy and apply for citizenship, I hear there is a really long line. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989265 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989265
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 17:35:08 GMT
Wade Tonken wrote "It seems the esteemed Professor Chua skipped her Psych 101 class where ..." I think it really boils down to one's set of priorities which is often culturally impacted. Perhaps many Westerners just don't wish for academic excellence to define their child's position in their life and this world. Building inner character, love for life, and moral excellence may just be more important to them than anything else. One may say the Chinese parent is selfish for pursuing their child's achievement in academic areas and for depriving them of a childhood filled with fresh air, laughter, pillow fights etc. That may just be more important to you than it is to Western parents. Also, you are programming and conditioning your children. They aren't robots; they are human beings. So, although we all likely have unlimited potential, perhaps you view your children more like machines and others view them more like people. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989264 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989264
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 17:34:56 GMT
Rizi Harris wrote "I think it really boils down to one's set of priorities which is often ..." "Yes, clearly she thought her parenting method was the preferable one. That was her culture, and she wanted to bring out the best in her kids the best way she knew how."
You seem really eager to mince words to tone down the article. "Preferable" implies a mild sense of selectivity. "Oh well if you *can* do this then it's better but it's not a big deal.". That's inconsistent with the evidence. She yelled, screamed, acted stupidly in some cases prima face we have to believe that either Ms. Chua knowingly acted irrationally or she believed her system was clearly superior.
I'm not sure what "culture" has to do with things either. She was exposed to other cultures and she seemed to know full-well that they considered what she did anywhere from suboptimal to illegal. This did not change her. There's a word we use when you consider your beliefs superior to all others without evidence to support that: arrogant
"However, the tone of the article is written gently mocking of herself, so I think she sees the humor in how overly demanding that philosophy is, despite the underlying benefits."
Give me some examples as to how she specifically mocks herself from the article. You can see *actual* self-mockery on this topic here:
"I only read this article, but at least here I didn't think she was mocking her husband."
She told her husband that his belief that children are different implied that he did not believe in his children. And followed up with how she would be disliked because she was the only one of the two who got the job done and finally congratulated herself when her child succeeded. In other words the father was wrong in every way. Even though, there is absolutely no objective evidence to say that any of the progress was Ms. Chua's doing.
"She believes he has a valid philosophy, but it was her cultural training and instincts as a mother to follow through on what she knew at the time."
Yes she holds irrational beliefs without the intellectual maturity to recognize them as such. Is that to be lauded? Again your wording is funny 'valid' would, to me imply something that is intellectually sound and not exclusive. i.e. There can be many valid ways to prove a mathematical theorem. However again, Ms. Chua clearly considered her belief to be above all others she encountered.
"From what I can see, the strength in their bi-cultural relationship is that they acknowledge each others' differences but still work together as a team"
Ok from just the article point to one paragraph where a specific contribution of the husband is counted as equal to Ms. Chuas. I'm not sure how you get to 'equal' there. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989248 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989248
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 17:31:16 GMT
Kim Eagles wrote ""Yes, clearly she thought her parenting method was the preferable one. That was ..." Great comments... insightful and objective! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989166 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989166
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 17:15:13 GMT
Justin Wright wrote "Great comments... insightful and objective!" Yes, say NO to these barbaric-sadistic-sick people!
Watch this:
http://mymoneymakingmachine.blogspot.com/2008/10/save-dolphin-stop-slaughter-this-is.html
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989061 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989061
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 16:50:30 GMT
Alan Yu wrote "Yes, say NO to these barbaric-sadistic-sick people! Watch this: http://mymoneymakingmachine.blogspot.com/2008/10/save-..." Please check wiki for Confucius, Joseph Needham, Science and Civilization in China (50 years of research), and the 15 significant inventions per century that changed the world. It was the political upheaval and wars that slowed down the pace. You are giving too much credit to Nixon. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989003 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1989003
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 16:36:34 GMT
Chunyan Li wrote "Please check wiki for Confucius, Joseph Needham, Science and Civilization in China (50 ..." "I wish the WSJ would send a reporter to Yale to interview her students to see if she is as much of an authoritarian tyrant in the classroom as she is in her home."
In "World on Fire" (pub. 2003), the only book I'll ever buy by this megalomaniac, Amy Chua used the experiences of her students (hardly the most mature indicators) to justify her premise that as global markets open, ethnic conflicts worsen. To this premise, she added her own family memoirs of Chinese "superiority" in the Philippines. So, one could say, that Chua "borrowed" (to put it politely) from her students to sell a book, and to extend her delusional legacy of "superiority".
What made "World on Fire" so revealing were her comments on the "revolutionary" aspects of Venezuela to justify her premise. Her use of anachronisms to explain social structures in that country had taken a page from "Chavezspeak", the earliest form of Hugo Chávez' polarization techniques -- after he was elected on a different platform. Among his adulators were students, often the first to jump on a bandwagon that brandishes "revolution".
Chua's "borrowing" from her students, and her added personal family anecdotes resulted in a calculated weave of controversy, to the delight of pinky readers, among them, educators in the social sciences at university, at the time, unable to see through the cult of personality in what is essentially a dictatorship in the guise of democracy.
Now with the addition of "Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother," Chua again uses anecdote, this time involving her daughters.
I wonder: if Chua produces provocative material based on a not-so-serious level of intellect, and these publications are acceptable in fulfilling the "publish or perish" requirements of academicians at Yale, what does that say about the level of excellence at Yale University?
Chua's level of excellence, her forté, seems to be: provocation. That's a classic symptom of someone with bipolar disorder. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988969 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988969
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 16:31:38 GMT
Sydney Hedderich wrote ""I wish the WSJ would send a reporter to Yale to interview her ..." I love that a good controversy can foster such rich discussion about parenting methods! The WSJ published a great rebuttal by Ayelet Waldman - a humorous perspective to add to the table. I also recommend the research-based rebuttal on www.positiveguidanceparenting.com - more food for thought about how "throwing your child out with the garbage" contends with the literature on best practices in parenting. Check it out!
www.positiveguidanceparenting.com http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988934 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988934
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 16:24:50 GMT
Rachel Saunders wrote "I love that a good controversy can foster such rich discussion about parenting ..." I am an Asian mother and I can’t help but feel offended by Ms. Chua’s article. I think there are so many comments just because a lot of Asian are offended if you read the comments. The stereotyping of Asian parents are already bad. Asian parents has bad reputation already and she is making a bad situation even worse. I am sorry she has to go to this extreme so her daughters can achieve her so called “success“.
I am sure there are many individuals have the same if not more achievements without their “Tiger Parents”. I don’t say her parenting is good or bad, but it’s “sad” . 1st of all, she doesn’t even qualify for a “Chinese mother”. She was raised in American and she married a white husband and her daughters are mixed. I grew up in Taiwan. My father is very controlling. My older brother has stuttering problem. Now I am older and I realize my brother’s stuttering and a lot of our mental issues are caused by my father. When I was a teenager, I decided not to have children cause I don’t want my children to experience this painful world. But I met a wonderful free spirited young man in college, (National Taiwan University, the best University in Taiwan, for your reference). His father is an alcoholic and his mother didn’t have a high school diploma. (He still managed to go to the same best college as I did. That says it all.) I then realized how people can live freely without package and be truly happy for who they are.
Now he is my husband and we have a wonderful 16-year-old son. My son had a wonderful childhood. He is rebellion and I had to yell at him at times. Cause his personality is just like my husband and I. That’s why this “tiger Parenting” won’t work for everybody. Even if you think it worked, the child succeed in violin, piano, or academically, the overall metal well-being is damaged, admit it or not. I have anxiety problems, for example. I used to wonder a lot of Asians are raised this way, why they still want to impose this to their children. Now I realize they just don’t get it. They are so brain washed and can’t see any other ways. Have you think about even her daughter’s thought of ‘I won’t be where I am if not for her’ is embedded in her brain by her mother but not her own? I do believe Asians or whatever cultures have similar value need to “break the cycle”. I think Ms. Chua and people like her just don’t get it. They don’t know how much they missed. Of cause going to Ivy league colleges and playing in carnegie hall is successful and admirable. But they are only one kind of achievements and there are a lot more to it. I can’t help but feel Ms. Chua is shallow to even feels proud of the way she parents her children and the needs to brag about it. Maybe there are some mental issues for Ms. Chua to weight so heavily in those areas of her life. Or maybe she and her daughters are just “superior” human beings can endure years of abuse and still be well rounded not like me. I prey for the later. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988907 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988907
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 16:20:00 GMT
mandy wu wrote "I am an Asian mother and I can’t help but feel offended by Ms. ..." Yes, and your child will certainly walk a path for others to follow.
It's really amusing that people here who are so critical of Amy Chua rush to list all the negatives of her parenting style, while thinking that their own laid back parenting style will produce the next Bill Gates. Here's some bad news: the odds that your kids will be potheads, teenage mothers, divorcees, living at home when they're still 30 is much higher than the odds your kids will be the next Bill Gates. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988901 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988901
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 16:19:39 GMT
Jonathan Yin wrote "Yes, and your child will certainly walk a path for others to follow.It's really amusing that ..." "copying things they are not smart enough to make themselves."
Um, that's the epitome of smartness. It's what Ford did to Volvo. Had Ford not stolen all of Volvo's advanced technology, it would have followed the path of Chrysler and GM. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988855 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988855
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 16:12:39 GMT
Jonathan Yin wrote ""copying things they are not smart enough to make themselves."Um, that's the epitome of ..." Yes they did. Western parenting before the 1950s was very much like the Chinese mother: disciplined and rote. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988831 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988831
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 16:08:41 GMT
Jonathan Yin wrote "Yes they did. Western parenting before the 1950s was very much like the Chinese ..." Very true, not badly either (although I think it's despicable to call someone a Nazi). 'z' in German is pronounced 'ts'. Generally the rule in English is to tolerate variants on imported words until it becomes no longer recognized as a foreign word. i.e. Occam and Ockham appear in texts probably in a ratio of 10:1 but neither is considered "correct". Japanese has an interesting mechanism when a word stops being recognized as foreign it shifts in rendering from Katakana to Hiragana. So "ga-ru" is an import of the English word girl but has been in use for so long it's commonly written in Hiragana wheras Ha-to-ka-ba is an import of the word "Hardcover" (as in books) and is generally written in Katakana. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988775 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988775
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 15:58:20 GMT
Kim Eagles wrote "Very true, not badly either (although I think it's despicable to call someone a ..." not gonna lie, I was originally going to go, OH WHOA TO THE CHINESE PARENTS! AND HAIL THE WESTERNS!
But then I left my comfort zone, to continue reading, for one.. I am Blown away, I have been reading on this website everyday for a few days now, and this post is going to stick with me when I become a dad many years from now. I congratulate you on teaching your Lulu to play that song! For one I think (perspective from this post) that you have essentially mastered the art of parenting by encouraging your kid in a way that they are better but it's not a right, you have to earn being better. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988769 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988769
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 15:56:51 GMT
Zachariah Logan wrote "not gonna lie, I was originally going to go, OH WHOA TO THE CHINESE PARENTS! AND ..." "Worse yet is her demand that her girls must get the highest grade in the class and always be number 1. If a student gets a 95 on a test and it's the highest in the class that's fine. However, if someone else gets a 98, that does NOT in any way diminish the value or achievement of the 95. "
I agree. I'd go further too as a statistician I suggest to parents that there is absolutely no real difference between grades that differ by such small margins. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988706 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988706
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 15:45:42 GMT
Kim Eagles wrote ""Worse yet is her demand that her girls must get the highest ..." This article is a purposely written divisive piece, meant to get people arguing. Next thing the journal will start publishing are articles about how Chinese are superior in other aspects of whatever. Who cares? Really? This is America and the mixing pot of world. At some point the cultural barriers fall which has happened a long time ago. Sure you have a few dumbies but overall the general population is filled with good hard working people. Stop being manipulated and think for yourself.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988647 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988647
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 15:33:57 GMT
Pat Eagle wrote "This article is a purposely written divisive piece, meant to get people arguing. Next ..." Did Thomas Edison, Albert Einstein, Benjamin Franklin, and many other innovators all have Chinese mothers? My guess is they were the result of we know as western civilization.
The credit has to go too Aristotle. Here is a brief description From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
: Aristotle (Greek: ???st?t????, Aristotéles) (384 BC – 322 BC)[1] was a Greek philosopher, a student of Plato and teacher of Alexander the Great. His writings cover many subjects, including physics, metaphysics, poetry, theater, music, logic, rhetoric, linguistics, politics, government, ethics, biology, and zoology. Together with Plato and Socrates (Plato's teacher), Aristotle is one of the most important founding figures in Western philosophy. Aristotle's writings were the first to create a comprehensive system of Western philosophy, encompassing morality and aesthetics, logic and science, politics and metaphysics.
It was only when president nix ion visits china that resulted in china catching up with western civilization.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988607 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988607
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 15:25:34 GMT
William Butler wrote "Did Thomas Edison, Albert Einstein, Benjamin Franklin, and many other innovators ..." Could some one tell us what happens to the daughters in adulthood? Are they happy? Very successful? Happy relationship with others and spouse? Do they follow similar child raising standards?
Not all kids can survive such high pressure parents. Some will be broken -> beocmes garbage for life. For every one successful story, there may be 99 that failed. For China, this may be Ok sicne the population is big enough to sustain such hits. For the west, the 99 may still be good enough to carry the nation foward? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988584 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988584
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 15:19:41 GMT
Mark Chan wrote "Could some one tell us what happens to the daughters in adulthood? Are they happy? ..." Yes, I am agree with her, if you wanna "robots" u need to make exactly the same. But if you wanna people people who think for themselves and are the best at what they want, in that for which they were born, then you find out what are the capabilities of your children, do not impose it, are not computers that I must set. I am a doctor now and I love my job, and I did that my parents took the trouble to help me discover my true potential. I never imposed it, never forced me to study, I myself saw the need. my mom never punished me when you take a bad rating, I just said, "we all make mistakes, but you're above this, so I'm sure the next you'll be the first. " I think that being a mother is "superior", however someone who insults you for not covering their expectations in a human anencephalic. now i respect and i LOVE my parents. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988501 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988501
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 15:07:41 GMT
gloria maria anicama wrote "Yes, I am agree with her, if you wanna "robots" u ..." Yes, I am agree with her, if you wanna "robots" u need to make exactly the same. But if you wanna people people who think for themselves and are the best at what they want, in that for which they were born, then you find out what are the capabilities of your children, do not impose it, are not computers that I must set. I am a doctor now and I love my job, and I did that my parents took the trouble to help me discover my true potential. I never imposed it, never forced me to study, I myself saw the need. my mom never punished me when you take a bad rating, I just said, "we all make mistakes, but you're above this, so I'm sure the next you'll be the first. " I think that being a mother is "superior", however someone who insults you for not covering their expectations in a human anencephalic. now i respect and i LOVE my parents. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988495 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988495
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 15:06:45 GMT
gloria maria anicama wrote "Yes, I am agree with her, if you wanna "robots" u ..." The truth finally comes out: now we know the source of all those socially awkward and outcast kids who get the best grades in class and play concerts in Carnegie Hall, but couldn't carry a conversation to save their lives. Emotional and social intelligence are just as important as grades and music. The proof is in the pudding: all the skills they learn via "Chinese Mothers" will help those kids be very successful...working for someone else. Lacking creativity and crucial people skills creates a ceiling that cannot be broken unless those shackles are removed. Regardless, the arrogance in this article is frankly shocking. Make no mistake, the writer does NOT speak for all Chinese Mothers, only those overbearing ones who impose their absurd expectations on their helpless children. I am by no means celebrating mediocrity, but there is something to be said for letting children pick what they want to excel in before pushing them. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988487 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988487
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 15:04:18 GMT
Alec Tasooji wrote "The truth finally comes out: now we know the source of all those ..." "....only superior at 4 basic things, lying, cheating, stealing and copying things ..." Sounds like what many people are practicing in the hard core of US, --- New York City or anywhere in our modern world.
It may not be for you to do business in China if you are not street smart. Good or bad Chinese are learning while you are bashing. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988464 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988464
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 15:00:06 GMT
Alex Wu wrote ""....only superior at 4 basic things, lying, cheating, stealing and copying ..." Vincent, I hear you loud and clear. I too am Chinese. My parents were not strict the way stereotypical Chinese parents are, but I saw how strict Chinese parents crippled my friends. I was raised to get a good education and play the piano and shun sports as well as working class people (as if lawyers,doctors or accountants were fun or good friends.....). The best years of my life have been spent playing and watching sports and trying hard to develop people/soft skills while being over educated. Now, being happy and healthy are life's best blessings. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988378 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988378
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 14:41:11 GMT
Linda Q. wrote "Vincent, I hear you loud and clear. I too am Chinese. ..." I am a Chinese and I know Amy is totally wrong. She doesn't know a thing about parenthood at all. She just want a Trophy Child but forgot to let her children explore on her own. Her Child can only follow the path where once the Great have walked. However, her child can never be the one that walk a path for others to follow.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988318 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988318
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 14:27:16 GMT
Vincent Kwok wrote "I am a Chinese and I know Amy is totally wrong. She doesn't ..." My business experience with the Chinese over the last 10 years has taught me they are only superior at 4 basic things, lying, cheating, stealing and copying things they are not smart enough to make themselves. When I read that Mrs. Chua and her husband were Yale professors, the arrogance of being "SUPERIOR" became crystal clear to me. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988275 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988275
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 14:18:37 GMT
Dave Hildebrand wrote "My business experience with the Chinese over the last 10 years has taught ..." At what cost? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988237 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988237
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 14:11:12 GMT
Virginia Wai wrote "At what cost?" Fantastic perspective and rich experience leading to desired outcome. I never had the courage to push like this. Kids turned out fine, but not world class achievers. Hmmmm. I'm forwarding this... Cynthia McMullen http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988234 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988234
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 14:09:57 GMT
CYNTHIA MCMULLEN wrote "Fantastic perspective and rich experience leading to desired outcome. I never had the ..." I wondered if some one had ghost write a book for my mother, would the publicity be the same?.
By Amy Chua's standard, my mother was no slough, in fact she can teach Professor Chua a thing or two about extreme parenting. Her result? In terms of 'achievements' Out of 4 children, 2 are MDs, 1 took the short cut by marrying a MD, one went into the lowly restaurant trade but has done so well financially that the smell of money has soften her heart. As my mother is illerate is any language and my father was too poor to afford music lessons, I think my mother's acievement is superior to that of Professor Chua.
In terms of family relationship, she is banished from the homes of her 2 MD children, my siblings wisely choose to keep their family intact instead of having the mother presiding over their homes. One choose to have no contact with her, one choose to shower her with money and enjoys the maternal grovelling.
Was the extreme parenting worth it? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988185 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988185
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 14:00:27 GMT
Virginia Wai wrote "I wondered if some one had ghost write a book for my mother, ..." Ben
I guess you have no idea how happy you can be, until you have money, I mean MONEY!
Of course, if someone brought up just watching TV, then you will feel bored without a job because you are not interested in many things, like most people who win lottery and go back to failure.
Or if you studies so much since you are young, you will find many subjects in life fascinating, because you know them very well, and have world of time to pursue them, create a business like a hobby(because there are demand for your finding, and you feel good to contribute and earn money as reward back) and be more fascinated because you change the world a little by a little.
It is about your self worth toward the world, how you can change or shape the future. Of course, >90% of people don't have that concept. Most people iincluding my parents are struggle for make a living, and never look out side the box. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988172 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988172
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 13:57:23 GMT
Jiyong Chen wrote "BenI guess you have no idea how happy you can be, ..." This is a Chinese-American perspective on children up bringing.
Raising children is a cultural human task where there is no school to attend to teach what it is supposed to be the right way or the proper way.
America is a very diverse community of cultures and everyone can raise its children the way it pleases.
there is definitly a need for improvement,but I am not sure,at the age of 66 and after raising two children than the chinese american way is the proper way, neither do I think, that my judeo christian european-american strict upbringing was the best. this is an interesting subject of discussion,but definitly ,not,the final conclusion. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988112 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988112
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 13:39:07 GMT
GUY NANIN wrote "This is a Chinese-American perspective on children up bringing. Raising children is a cultural human ..." The real test is whether Sophia and Louisa raise their children the same way.
Somehow I think Amy will still be the focal point of that picture. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988006 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1988006
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 13:15:48 GMT
Adam Trouthe wrote "The real test is whether Sophia and Louisa raise their children the same way.Somehow ..." Yes I meet consultants from time to time and I do consulting regularly. Consultants I'd say fall into one of two categories either a SME - subject matter expert. So someone who knows a huge amount about some well-defined field say particle physics, or statistical analysis (me!), Network Security or some technology (i.e. Java) and what I would call 'business consultants' - people who work in much more vague fields like 'Business Systems' and 'Cyberinfrastructure' or whathaveyou.
Simply put the former requires much more expertise to be successful since there are pretty objective ways to determine if you succeeded and the part you played in the project. Having played at the later I'd say you don't have to be so smart and since there is little in the way of objective measures just about anything can be spun into a success. It was a pretty interesting experience. I have this funny internal metric for deciding how difficult a job is which is the time it takes to realize that I know more about a field than the person I'm talking to. I think in the room full of people it was pretty interesting that it only took a few sentences to realize that nobody really knew how to solve the problem. Most of the terminology was designed to obfuscate rather than clarify and it was a lot more like being with a lot of insecure people all vieing for relevance rather than a meeting of minds. Others - the harder people to work with - were people who seemed like they knew what needed to be done but when you actually drilled down a bit it turned into some vague misunderstanding of some poorly written paper that was peer reviewed by nobody. I don't really fault these kinds of analysts per se the research done in areas like business systems is well craptastic! You really can't blame it though because you can't run an RCT on a business. That said, the utter seriousness these people took their decisions with had me stiffling laughter more than once.
The best part though were the numbers. Man I have never seen so much BS in a single room than when going over the numbers of a bunch of analysts. I played a game once when I was being used as an auditor I'd take the project plan and pick an appendix at random and slap my finger down and say authoritatively 'Can you justify the difference between these two costs between plan A and plan B?'. There was a worried rustle and then a "We will get back to you". What was clear in the end is all they did was talk to people in the organization and find out that most of them favored plan A and lo and behold plan A turned out to be cheaper (or if it couldn't be cheaper than some risk would be associated with plan B - of course these risks were rarely evaluated symmetrically between solutions). Other less entertaining biases existed too like the fact that the consulting firm only had any expertise in plan A and of course the age-old "we have industry partners in plan A"
So IMHO it's far easier to be successful as some kind of business consultants, the money is big in both cases - probably higher in business consultants and there's certainly no end of work. You will likely be one of the (privately) least respected people on the project. I personally think I'd have to be considerably less intelligent to be happy at that. I like being an expert in something and I like being one of the few who can solve a problem and I like problems where there is often an exquisitely right answer. As opposed to someone who's advice probably isn't much better than the next persons (but you do spend a fair amount of time convincing others and yourself that this is not the case) and where the project probably could have succeeded without you (and again you spend lots of time telling prospective employers the opposite) and finally if I'm to be disliked for my arrogance then I would like to be at least admired for my intellect rather than despised for my lack-thereof http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987985 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987985
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 13:09:01 GMT
Kim Eagles wrote "Yes I meet consultants from time to time and I do consulting ..." Even brutal punishments and general strictness seem to have been very common in the Germany of the 60s and 70s. Amy did not relate any beatings for her daughters. Such bodily chastisements were generally tolerated over here until about 40 years ago. "Streng, aber gerecht!" (Strict, but justful) was the principle. As long as the mother loves her kids and consequently cares for them, her way of guiding them should be her choice. I guess many people would have very much preferred to be beaten for breaking convened rules instead of because their parents just felt like it from time to time. I is such occasional brutality which leaves scars in the self esteem.
Nowadays, more subtle ways of mistreatment are common. Some parents continue to make their children feel like complete failures if they are not accepted in good schools and just give up on them.
I know people from China who have been treated as little kings, being the only offspring and having 3 couples of parents (their own, the grandparents where Chinese working parents often leave their kids, and the best friends). The good old German severity would have suited them very well. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987950 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987950
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 12:58:54 GMT
Achim Schwarz wrote "Even brutal punishments and general strictness seem to have been very common in the ..." All of these people who are "appalled" will be just as shocked when the Chinese roll rght over our namby-pamby offspring. Can't wait for the droopy-pants generation to be defending me in my old age. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987910 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987910
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 12:42:08 GMT
Mike Cavanagh wrote "All of these people who are "appalled" will be just as shocked when the Chinese roll ..." See what I have written on the comparison between the French Mother and the American Mother (so to speak), in my book "French and Americans - The Other Shore" (available free of charge, as well as the 3rd edition of the French version, at www.pbaudry.com).
Pascal Baudry http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987725 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987725
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 11:14:57 GMT
Pascal Baudry wrote "See what I have written on the comparison between the French Mother and the American ..." lovely arguement..im happy to see teenagers like u..with such a broad perspective on things! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987671 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987671
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 10:30:16 GMT
Divya Reddy wrote "lovely arguement..im happy to see teenagers like u..with such a broad perspective on ..." I agree with what you have said. Way to go. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987670 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987670
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 10:29:34 GMT
Tina Lee wrote "I agree with what you have said. Way to go." Correction:
Chen Ning Yang and Tsung-Dao Lee were citizens of the Republic of China when they received their Nobel. Charles K. Kao was born in the RoC, moved from mainland to Taiwan in 1948, then to Hong Kong. He had dual US and UK citizenship when he was awarded.
Samuel C. C. Ting was born in the US, grew up in Taiwan, went back to the US for his BS degree. Very little to do with the PRC as he and his siblings are named with the 4 Chinese characters in the name RoC.
Daniel C. Tsui was born a citizen of RoC, grew up in Hong Kong, and received the Nobel as a US citizen.
Roger Y. Tsien was born in the US to Chinese parents.
Ei'ichi Negishi was born in Japan-created and controlled Manchuria to Japanese parents. I'm sure he believes he's Japanese (or American as he spent much of his life in the US) rather than Chinese or PRC.
Gao Xingjian was born a citizen of RoC, grew up in the PRC, but received the Nobel as a French citizen. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987664 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987664
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 10:19:06 GMT
Tao Chen wrote "Correction: Chen Ning Yang and Tsung-Dao Lee were citizens of the Republic of ..." I disagree with this teaching method. Why must violin and piano? What if your daughters are naturally good at acting or have a gift in painting or other things?
True story- Does 'bright future' only refer to finance executives, engineers and doctors?
My mum stopped me from taking painting classes which I was extremely good at in elementary school and pushed me to take pianos and later on pursue a career in Finance. However, after the economic crisis, there are simply less finance jobs out there for recent grads and the problem becomes- there are too many Chinese in the business school!
For example, right now a lot of firms in my city will prioritize to hire Caucasians in the Finance/accounting sector simply because over 90% of the job applicants are Asians who got pushed by their parents to study finance. The company understands that the very few Caucasians who apply for the jobs actually think that "I want this job because I love it" rather than "my mum wants me to get this so i can make her proud".
I don't think the mum realizes why the kids can be successful is also because of this incredibly westernized caring daddy who probably secretly heal these pool girls' self-esteem, give them the confidence they need and a happy childhood!
I think there should be a good balance. Teaching the kids not to give up is great but using F words, putting unnecessary stress to kids with such young age are simply very old-fashioned and selfish. The bad reputation of this teaching method can also drive your kids to distance themselves from the Asian culture once they leave home. ( All my immigrant friends who had scary Asian mums end up dating non-Chinese, including me)
I think the reason that the teaching method works in this case is because she sets a great example for the kids by not giving up on them and providing them the best education environment (I beg the expensive private schools around Yale cannot be bad), not because she forces her kids' to do exactly what she plans everyday. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987659 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987659
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 10:10:59 GMT
CHANG LIU wrote "I disagree with this teaching method. Why must violin and piano? What if your ..." Note the keyword is "made", not "designed", "invented", "ordered", or "they have the technology and know-how but it's too expensive to make this" in China. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987626 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987626
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 09:21:34 GMT
Chris Doe wrote "Note the keyword is "made", not "designed", "invented", "ordered", or &..." Check the label; most of the products in your household are made in China. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987596 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987596
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 08:28:07 GMT
Ernest Wong wrote "Check the label; most of the products in your household are made in China." None http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987593 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987593
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 08:23:20 GMT
anthony strano wrote "None" It's easy to criticize when one hasn't walk in the same shoes. There are lots of different cultures that work. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987590 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987590
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 08:16:55 GMT
Ernest Wong wrote "It's easy to criticize when one hasn't walk in the same shoes. There are lots of different ..." Definitely yes to the first question and somewhat yes to the second questions; it's just too hard not to be "Americanized" when we are living in the United States. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987586 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987586
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 08:11:56 GMT
Ernest Wong wrote "Definitely yes to the first question and somewhat yes to the second questions; it's just too ..." It sure doesn't hurt to have money. It also seems to make others happy when I give them money :-) http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987579 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987579
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 08:04:32 GMT
Ernest Wong wrote "It sure doesn't hurt to have money. It also seems to make others happy ..." As a Yale College and Yale Medical school graduate I am appalled at the thought that someone with these absolute authoritarian attitudes of constantly punishing, belittling, and browbeating her own young children is actually teaching law at Yale. If she had been raised in Red China, where people are all taught to be subservient to government authority, one could perhaps understand it, but she was raised in America. She says it is important for the parent to always take the teacher's side (regardless of the facts). Has she never seen unfairness in school? This attitude can insidiously lead from the teacher is always right, to the government is always right, der fuerher is always right, power and authority are always right. Is this what she teaches her law students? I wish the WSJ would send a reporter to Yale to interview her students to see if she is as much of an authoritarian tyrant in the classroom as she is in her home.
She denigrates acting in school plays as a waste of time compared to her preference for the violin, yet the creativity of acting, writing, and drama have always been held in high regard at Yale, both as a field of study and a career. Likewise she is oblivious to the fact that initially playing computer games has led many students to outstanding academic, scientific, and business success in the information technology world, many of whom are ethnic Chinese. Of great concern is her unswerving belief that grades are the only indicators of learning that matter, and that A- is unacceptable. Worse yet is her demand that her girls must get the highest grade in the class and always be number 1. If a student gets a 95 on a test and it's the highest in the class that's fine. However, if someone else gets a 98, that does NOT in any way diminish the value or achievement of the 95. Chua's emphasis on grade competitiveness eventually produces obnoxious hostile traits in students who can't make friends with their fellow students because they regard them as competitors and enemies. This pernicious attitude stays with them later in the workplace. I've seen it far too often in the medical field. Patient's number one complaint about doctors is poor communication and inability to relate to people. The reason is that so many were raised to be obnoxious overachieving grade grubbers who never learned the value of teamwork by playing sports, or acting in a school play. Punitive authoritarian tyrant parents are in every ethnic group and it is wrong to label them Chinese. I have known many Chinese who are outstanding academics, scientists, and physicians, who were raised in loving homes and taught to have a real intellectual desire to learn because learning is inherently interesting and rewarding. This attitude is so much superior to Chua's fear of punishment model. I do hope her daughters don't end up being psychological wrecks in 10 years. The worst part of all is not just that Chua is a tyrant mother, but that she is proud of it and brags about it!
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987578 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987578
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 08:04:26 GMT
Frank Wilson wrote "As a Yale College and Yale Medical school graduate I am appalled at the thought that ..." I can relate to the situations described by the author as well as see the humor. Yes, I would buy the book. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987572 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987572
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 08:01:38 GMT
Ernest Wong wrote "I can relate to the situations described by the author as well as see the humor. Yes, ..." I wonder if you think everyone with work ethic instilled in them by their parents tend to succeed more than those who don't? Do/Will you raise your kids the same way you're raised?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987559 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987559
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 07:48:14 GMT
Chris Doe wrote "I wonder if you think everyone with work ethic instilled in them by their parents ..." I was a product of this kind of education. One of my most vivid memories was being locked out of the house for an entire afternoon -without lunch and after much berating- for coming home with a 9,5/10 for a spelling test as I missed a 'g'. I was 10 yrs old. This was just one incident amongst the many. I asked my math teacher for masking my 6/10, by changing it into 8/10 (the lowest my Mom would accepted) only on the test paper I'd brought home. She looked at me quizzically and must have wondered how could a 10 yrs could be so 'tricky'. Well, when 7,5/10 is met at home with beatings it wasn't too hard. Things didn't get better until I was out of University. I can honestly said that I'm amazed that I didn't turn into a drug addict or an alcoholic. The fact that I wasn't suicidal or depressive is incredible. At that point of my life I weighed 42 kg for 162 cm.
The fact is, I understood that the only way to got out was to be sucessful. I wasn't going to change an abusive way of living into a poor one. I was adamant about wanting to live good to make up for all that and through trials and errors I've reasonably succeed. Now that I'm a mother I've sworn that I won't put my daughters into what I've gone through. It's not easy but I just have to remember these two incidents to remind me what a bleak situation it was...and how lucky I am to be given a chance to break the circle. The circle...? Yes...the circle. When my Mom questioned me about the fact that I didn't pushed my two year olds into potty training and that I've told her that when they're ready they'll know, she went quite for a minute....Then she said : "Well...I suppose it is up to you to educate them your way.I educated you the way I was educated by my mother. She considered me to be a failure so I just want to make sure that I've done right by you and to show everybody that both you and I are winners". I didn't know what to say, but I sure am grateful for knowing that we have to power to end the heartbreaks. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987545 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987545
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 07:32:10 GMT
Judith Paesano wrote "I was a product of this kind of education. One of my most vivid memories was being ..." Her kids are obviously talented and will undoubtedly be successful people in life, but to think of being raised in a household where every decision has been decided for me and where my own interests are merely tossed aside would be horrifying. I realize that this is only one perspective and the father certainly helped balance this lady out, but JESUS, no playdates? no complaining? no choosing your own extracurricular activities? I would hate to be these kids on the playground during recess or lunch...
Her argument is flawed and really simplistic at times (they enjoy the praise for doing a good job so will enjoy practicing... I loved getting praise for my piano playing but that didn't stop me from hating every second of piano practice) and her parenting style is abusive. Not letting your six year old daughter have a drink of water or go to the washroom while forcing her to play the piano all night demonstrates no real understanding of child psychology/ early childhood development, an incredibly poor parenting style (even if it is considered 'Chinese') and behaviour which constitutes child abuse that Social Services would certainly have been interested in hearing about. The entire process sounds remarkably familiar to behaviour programming used in brainwashing simulations in the 50s and 60s.
Once again, I have no doubt that Sophia and Louisa will be successful in whatever role Amy picks for them... http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987541 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987541
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 07:31:28 GMT
Brenden St. Pierre wrote "Her kids are obviously talented and will undoubtedly be successful people in life, but to think of being ..." Her kids are obviously talented and will undoubtedly be successful people in life, but to think of being raised in a household where every decision has been decided for me and where my own interests are merely tossed aside would be horrifying. I realize that this is only one perspective and the father certainly helped balance this lady out, but JESUS, no playdates? no complaining? no choosing your own extracurricular activities? I would hate to be these kids on the playground during recess or lunch...
Her argument is flawed and really simplistic at times (they enjoy the praise for doing a good job so will enjoy practicing... I loved getting praise for my piano playing but that didn't stop me from hating every second of piano practice) and her parenting style is abusive. Not letting your six year old daughter have a drink of water or go to the washroom while forcing her to play the piano all night demonstrates no real understanding of child psychology/ early childhood development, an incredibly poor parenting style (even if it is considered 'Chinese') and behaviour which constitutes child abuse that Social Services would certainly have been interested in hearing about. The entire process sounds remarkably familiar to behaviour programming used in brainwashing simulations in the 50s and 60s.
Once again, I have no doubt that Sophia and Louisa will be successful in whatever role Amy picks for them... http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987540 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987540
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 07:31:24 GMT
Brenden St. Pierre wrote "Her kids are obviously talented and will undoubtedly be successful people in life, but to think of being ..." You missed the whole point ! You simply can't understand -- the motivation of Mr. Chua to push and control her daughters. IT IS her unconditional LOVE to her daughters, for her daughters, even beyond the love to herself. And her understanding of short-term pain is for long-term gain.
Does fascism has LOVE for others? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987535 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987535
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 07:27:49 GMT
Ben Lucas wrote "You missed the whole point ! You simply can't understand -- the motivation of Mr. ..." Does money mean happiness? You seem to have pretty high ego yourself. You are thinking you're better than most of others? In what sense? Money? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987524 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987524
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 07:15:45 GMT
Ben Lucas wrote "Does money mean happiness? You seem to have pretty high ego ..." Having immigrated to the United States since I was six years old, I can relate to many of the things that Amy describes in her article. Yes, I played the piano, never got a lot of pampering from my parents, went to school for many years until I received my doctorate, .... Today, I am an executive at a large company, I've started several businesses, and I donate my time teaching at several universities. As I look back at my childhood, I realized that my traditional Chinese upbringing that my parents instilled within me gave me a strong work ethic, a sense of fairness/ethics, the mental discipline to deal with hardships, and an appreciation for the simple things in life such as family, friends, love, charity. My parents loved me but they did not artificially inflate my ego nor bolster my self esteem by trying to create a bubble for me that is surrounded by artificial praises, expensive toys, and an air of exclusivity. I can be charitable because I have received a lot in my lifetime and I have experience what it's like not to have something. I can be kind because I know what it is to be the target of meanness.
For those that are critical of the traditional Chinese upbringing and suggest that these kids become mindless "robots," you only have to look at the income levels of the Chinese vs other ethic groups including the whites. Check out the 2010 census statistics and you will see that median income of the Chinese in the United States exceed that of all other groups.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987513 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987513
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 07:07:23 GMT
Ernest Wong wrote "Having immigrated to the United States since I was six years old, I ..." As an Asian teenager born and raised in Hong Kong, I just have to say that I am extremely insulted by this article. Ms Chua, are you trying to insult your own kind?! While my own parents do have some of these "Asian" quirks as listed in the article, this is hardly true for any Asian - particularly, I would think, Asian-American - family anymore. I went to sleepovers, participated in school plays, had a boyfriend, and came home with (more than once - shocker!) B's for tests. Sure, there's a constant pressure to succeed academically, but never to the extent that is described.
A professor in Yale Law school? I bet your parents were over the moon when that happened. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987487 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987487
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 06:48:36 GMT
Lianne Tan wrote "As an Asian teenager born and raised in Hong Kong, I just have to say that ..." As a Caucasian mother of two sons that are half Taiwanese, I would never raise them the way this author describes. I have seen several versions of the "Chinese Mom" in action and I would say that these children are not happy. Nor do I ever see them being happy and well adjusted later in life with so much pressure being put on them starting at the age of 3 years old. The beauty of living in America and being American is expressing yourself any way you want which includes exploring new ideas, new concepts, making mistakes to learn from, being social with your peers, etc. Would Bill Gates be where he is now if he had stayed at Harvard, only to go onto your typical computer science degree? I highly doubt that. Thinking outside the box is what make American great!!! We are a democracy for a reason and we are successful because of this.
Is the only path to a good life in America going to an Ivy League school and becoming rich and successful? Hardly. My husband came from Taiwan when he was twelve, learned English once he was here, did well in school, got accepted in to college and then medical school and is now a successful doctor in his field. Did his Chinese mother have weird quirks? Absolutely, but did he decide not to follow that path for himself and now his own children? Yes. He accepts and embraces the fact that he is a Chinese American and that he has become successful on his own accord. But after reading the above article he would never want his own boys to have to go through that kind of childhood.
I feel sorry for Ms. Chua thinking that her way was the best way to raise her children but to each her own. I trully hope that her daughters are happy and accepting of their mother's rigid upbringing.
As far as her book, I'd have to agree with the previous comment and say that it's at the bottom of my "To Read" list. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987477 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987477
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 06:40:42 GMT
Heather Lee wrote "As a Caucasian mother of two sons that are half Taiwanese, I would never raise ..." What was Harry S Truman's grade in university?
He's the man who decided to drop atomic bombs on Japan. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987476 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987476
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 06:40:08 GMT
King Yin Yan wrote "What was Harry S Truman's grade in university?He's the man who decided to drop ..." You are mother and you know something http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987473 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987473
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 06:39:01 GMT
Choi Jae Hoon wrote "You are mother and you know something" Think of how Uncle Sam is treating immigrants:
"If your SAT/GRE/TOEFL/immigration score is not high enough, stay in your country for another year"
"Or play the American roulette"
Western hypocrisy makes other cultures look inferior and protects Western infants. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987472 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987472
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 06:36:21 GMT
King Yin Yan wrote "Think of how Uncle Sam is treating immigrants: "If your SAT/GRE/..." I wish Ms. Chua realizes how lucky she is and gives her daughters more credits than she had given herself. I am a Chinese mother with a teenage son. Every child is an individual and responds differently. My son started rebelling my parenting from a very young age and mine is nothing compares to hers. Good for her that it worked for her daughters. She should show more appreciation. Her parenting might not have done that much than she thinks. Her Daughters are simply wonderful. That's it! I am sure her parenting will not work for everybody. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987458 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987458
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 06:31:54 GMT
mandy wu wrote "I wish Ms. Chua realizes how lucky she is and gives her ..." I'm sorry Ms. Chua. Your article is terrible. I'm 22 and a Chinese American (ABC). I've lived in China for a few years. Your article is exaggerated, I would explain the flaws in the article but I won't waste time repeating what others have commented. You probably meant well, but your article is really generalized. REALLY BAD.
It looks like your daughters are mixed? Could there be a bias towards the American upbringing?
I really hope this article is SATIRE.
No I won't buy your book either :] http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987453 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987453
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 06:28:58 GMT
Drew Kwok wrote "I'm sorry Ms. Chua. Your article is terrible. I'm 22 and a Chinese ..." I decided to read the comments because I saw the largest number in the comments tab that I have ever seen. Four pages in I think I have read every comment at least twice and several others more than thrice. I don't know what is going on but at this rate there may be less than 1,000 real points of view here.
I think what comes from an article like this is that people need to get a sense of humor and stop coming to such negative conclusions. I bet most read this article with a toungue in their cheek and decided not to comment but Professor Chua seems to have pushed enough buttons to make her book a must read...or maybe not. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987437 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987437
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 06:20:56 GMT
Lyndall Medearis wrote "I decided to read the comments because I saw the largest number in the comments ..." I think you've hit on the right note here. I see many draw comparison to learning piano or violin, but I believe Amy Chua's not criticized for her demand for excellence, it's got more to do with how success is measured by her and how much control she imposes on her children.
Just to correct you though, Einstein's father didn't want him to get straight A and play musical instruments, his father wanted him to take over the family's engineering company. He didn't learn about relativity, he invented it! In his 1905 paper, he cited absolutely no reference to any publications. Aside from mentioning 5 great schientists before him, everything came out of his constant day dreams in a shabby little patent office. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987389 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987389
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 05:58:05 GMT
Chris Doe wrote "I think you've hit on the right note here. I see many ..." If Virginia De Niro ever wrote a book on how she raised Robert in a divorced family, allowed him to drop out of HS at 16 and still making him succeed in acting, I'll be more than happy to hand over my money for a copy.
As for Amy Chua's book, well, I can only say it's much further down on my wish list. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987352 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987352
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 05:41:53 GMT
Chris Doe wrote "If Virginia De Niro ever wrote a book on how she raised Robert in a ..." @ Ms. Eagles
My point, if you were following, was that only negative reviews were shared. This serves to mislead -- especially when the positive reviews actually outnumbered the negative ones. So it is significant given the context. And as I noted most reviews were at the extreme ends, either a 5 or a 1 ("either a love or hate response"). In the latest tally for example, there are 123 reviews, 54 rated 5, 42 rated 1 (5's and 1's together represent 78% of all ratings). And positives 5's+4's = 60; negatives 2's+1's = 54. 3's=9.
If your professor asks you to review War and Peace and you instead proceed to rant about how Tolstoy was a Russian traitor and a Chinese sympathizer, I would have serious doubts that you read the book. This is the form of the content from many of the negative reviewers.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987346 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987346
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 05:40:53 GMT
Justin Wright wrote "@ Ms. EaglesMy point, if you were following, was that only negative reviews ..." (letter cont'd)
While these may seem like cliched individuals to cite (and they are), that doesn't make their stories any less noteworthy.
Even if you don't want the next Bill Gates, if you want a wholesome individual, you won't find one in your child. Any child can play the violin if they are coerced into it. You are right that being good at something makes it more fun to do...but only sometimes. I'm great at math and science, but I enjoy international relations more. I have a Chinese friend who tutors math at Kumon, but her true passion is paleontology. Another one is an amazing dancer. Yet another was the only girl in her Calc 3 class in high school, outperformed most of her peers, and now is pursuing a major in English and Economics at Yale University. Her goal is to be an English professor or a writer. All of these people will find success in their lives, though not necessarily as doctors or engineers. None of them are cookie-cutter, and it is their multi-facetedness that makes them such three dimensional, fascinating people.
If someone can look at your child and predict their extracurricular "passions" simply judging by their race, chances are you are stifling them...and eventually, you will lose your grip on your children. Do you really want to advocate for a future in which every Chinese-American is a fantastic violin player, mathematician, and has a perfect MCAT score, but will never be able to engage with an audience or have any meaningful social interactions?
There needs to be a happy medium between your style of parenting and the Western style. Western households are often anarchy, and they are often the sites of TV shows like Supernanny for a reason, but your household is like a military boot camp. What "tiger parents" are churning out are robots, and while that is not as bad, it certainly isn't GOOD. Allowing a child to pursue dancing or writing or paleontology isn't the end of the world. Just because they are interested in something doesn't mean that it will be their career. And if it IS, then good for them!
I really hope that it happens to you, that your child rebels, finds success anyway, and doesn't become the machine that you are raising her to be. Maybe then, like a conservative parent whose child has just come out of the closet to them, you will reverse your provincial attitude and begin to embrace harmony, diversity and individuality. If you want a success factory, then you are pursuing a lost cause. There is no tried-and-true formula for parenting. If someone had found it, everyone would know their name. The only reason we know yours is the same reason we know Glenn Beck's or Keith Olberman's: you people love controversy, and display an astonishingly high level of hubris. We as humans love certainty, and as certain as we are that no one will find the perfect equation for child-rearing, we are equally certain that you are no closer it than anyone else.
Sincerely,
Anirudh Krishna
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987330 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987330
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 05:34:29 GMT
Raja Krishna wrote "(letter cont'd)While these may seem like cliched individuals to cite (and they are), that doesn't ..." Hi Mrs. Chua,
I agree with you that more direct communication between parents and their children is key in effecting change and development. I find it amusing how Western parents have to perform a delicate dance to communicate a simple fact with their children. However, I find your overall parenting philosophy highly disturbing, and can tell you from experience that you are making a mistake.
Before I articulate my more serious argument, I will begin with a taboo in the debate world: anecdotal evidence. However, since that's what you used to support YOUR claims, I feel a bit less guilty about using it myself...
As a high school student of Indian descent, I can tell you unequivocally that you are highly mistaken in your embrace of what is quite frankly a totalitarian parenting style. I have many peers whose parents think that same way that you do, and I perform at the same level or better than they do in most activities. Also (gasp), I enjoy sports. My parents openly encourage me to remain physically active, and furthermore, they have allowed me to join whatever clubs/activities that I want to. I am part of Duo Interpretation on my Speech&Debate team. Duo is an acting/drama event, and I have found a high amount of success and a creative outlet in its pursuit.
I'm not an exception either. Maybe it's just my school (Solon High School, OH), but it seems to me that all of the stereotypically "Chinese" parents like yourself raise cookie-cutter children that are at once bland and overly neurotic about themselves. While you may claim that insecurity is a necessary part of building up respect for your parents and for yourself, the fact of the matter is that high school is one of the most dangerous times of life to instill insecurity into your children. But what do I know? I'm just a teenager who sees the other side of the brutality that you are committing in every day life.
I have several friends whose parents are so strict and "tigery" that their effect is to scare their children into submission, which is what you seem to be advocating. The result? My friends average about 3 hrs. of sleep per night because they are quite literally too scared of getting low As or high Bs. This ends up being a self-fulfilling phenomenon. Their lack of sleep and frayed nerves lead them to perform worse on tests. Not BADLY, just not perfectly. Several of them have begun using drugs and alcohol as coping mechanisms, both activities that their parents will never find out about. Their parents will continue to rule with an iron fist, clamp down on fun, and subdue any perceived attempt to rebel. Little do they know that their children are already rebelling.
For the past three years, the graduating classes of my high school have been studded with absolutely stellar students. Who are they? They are the ones who are self-driven, who were allowed to pursue whatever activities they wanted, and who had parents that really cared about education and encouraged their children to pursue, but who did NOT (and I repeat, NOT) micromanage their children's lives. Sure, the cookie-cutter Asians were up there as well, but they aren't the ones being accepted early to Yale and Harvard. It's the people who have been allowed to blossom into unique individuals that write the best essays, offer a fresh perspective on life, and bring some color to their communities.
Your formula might guarantee a successful child, but it will not guarantee a happy one. Just because YOU don't harbor any resentment at being raised the way that you are raising your child doesn't mean that other children won't. It also doesn't mean that you have to completely Westernize yourself, because I disagree with the carefree attitude that Western parents have as well. There has to be some negative reinforcement, some encouraging, some stern talks, and some brutally honest realities revealed to the children. This doesn't mean that their creativity has to be beaten out of them. Like you said, you do have your child's best interests at heart. You want to them to have the tools necessary to navigate a rapidly chaotic world and to be able to support a family of their own one day. You want them to be able to make a splash in a world, their own small dent in the skein of human history. And they will. Your child will become a doctor or an engineer or a lab researcher just like you want them to. They will earn a 6-figure salary. They will marry, have children, and their children will be smart, too. But if you want a star, THAT is not what you will have raised. I urge you to read the biography of people like Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Steve Jobs, and other individuals who are truly geniuses and have found mega-success and mega-happiness. If they had had Asian parents, who knows how I would be communicating this message to you? It certainly would not be on a Windows 7 PC or on a Mac. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987327 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987327
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 05:32:43 GMT
Raja Krishna wrote "Hi Mrs. Chua,I agree with you that more direct communication between ..." As a Chinese, I count Amy Chua's self-portrayal as the prototypical chinese mother a slur on all the chinese mothers I have known. My mother did not limit my social relationships, nor did she ever hint that anything less than an "A" was unacceptable. Yet, even according to the hackneyed and shallow measures of success promulgated by Ms. Chua, I was not a failure: I attended an undergraduate Ivy League institution and became a physician, all without my mother having to be a monomaniacal control freak.
Is it because Ms. Zhou regards her children as trophies to be boasted about at her country club? This is an extremely troubling model to boast about. It has the real danger of burning out otherwise talented children, and steering them down one's own narrow-minded path of success. I suspect that if Einstein had had such a childhood, he may have become a talented musician and got straight A's, but he would not have had the time to dream about relativity.
Lionel Wong http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987314 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987314
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 05:28:08 GMT
Kyle Wong wrote "As a Chinese, I count Amy Chua's self-portrayal as the prototypical chinese mother a ..." Seriously! If you don't think America does a great job of raising children who learn to oppress minority groups then you are as naive as the poor chaps who think the republican party is designed to serve the middle class. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987305 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987305
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 05:26:02 GMT
brian sauer wrote "Seriously! If you don't think America does a great job of raising children ..." 'While some seems more focused on the destination and the outcome, for the most part, the life is all about “the journey.”'
SPOT ON !! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987291 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987291
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 05:20:12 GMT
Sree Oggu wrote "'While some seems more focused on the destination and the outcome, for the most part, the life is ..." David,
I'm pretty sure non-Christian reader would do just that and a piece by Dobson would generate similar vitriol . Fair or not Amy waged a sort of war and only focused on the positive aspects of her crude parenting style. While I agree that repetition is required for excellence, belittling and degrading your child is uncreative and would be expected to generate a host of undesirable sequela. A more intelligent and creative mother/parent would develop a relationship with their child and figure out a way to enforce optimal performance and rehearsal without the nasty degenerate behavior. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987290 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987290
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 05:20:08 GMT
brian sauer wrote "David,I'm pretty sure non-Christian reader would do just that and a ..." My parents emigrated from China to America when I was three. I was raised in almost the exact cultural environment as described by Mrs. Chua in her article (I played the piano); and I have many, many Chinese friends who've also had almost the same exact childhood experiences with their respective parents. We're all in our mid-twenties now, and we are all - for the most part - happy, successful, and no more or less scarred than any other person who's been raised by adults who've harbored expectations in their children at some point.
And regardless of whatever mistakes my Chinese parents made in raising me, there was never a moment even once when I doubted my parents' love for me. The love was there in everything they did, everything they said, and I knew it and I could feel it, even when I felt like I hated them. I think all my Chinese friends would agree to this as well.
No one is saying one method of child-raising is "superior" except for whoever chose the title of the article, and that person wasn't Amy Chua, as she's already said. Chinese parents make just as many mistakes as Western parents - they just make their own kind; and I'm sure Chinese children have just as many psychological scars they'll blame on their parents, just as Western children do with theirs.
Chinese children who are raised in the stereotypically Chinese household DO have a certain level of excellence they have to, and usually do, uphold - whether it's in academics or music playing. It's a cultural fact. Chinese children joke about it, white children who hang around enough Chinese children joke about it, we all joke about it. And I think it's very reasonable to suggest that the reason why Chinese people usually DO excel in academics is because of the way they're raised. Chinese people can be very strict on their kids. Chua's article just concisely describes what it's like from the Chinese parents' side. And I think she did a good job. I felt my childhood flashing back as I read her article. And I didn't feel anger, or resentment at the memories. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987286 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987286
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 05:19:41 GMT
Helen Zou wrote "My parents emigrated from China to America when I was three. I was ..." My parents emigrated from China to America when I was three. I was raised in almost the exact cultural environment as described by Mrs. Chua in her article (I played the piano); and I have many, many Chinese friends who've also had almost the same exact childhood experiences with their respective parents. We're all in our mid-twenties now, and we are all - for the most part - happy, successful, and no more or less scarred than any other person who's been raised by adults who've harbored expectations in their children at some point.
And regardless of whatever mistakes my Chinese parents made in raising me, there was never a moment even once when I doubted my parents' love for me. The love was there in everything they did, everything they said, and I knew it and I could feel it, even when I felt like I hated them. I think all my Chinese friends would agree to this as well.
No one is saying one method of child-raising is "superior" except for whoever chose the title of the article, and that person wasn't Amy Chua, as she's already said. Chinese parents make just as many mistakes as Western parents - they just make their own kind; and I'm sure Chinese children have just as many psychological scars they'll blame on their parents, just as Western children do with theirs.
Chinese children who are raised in the stereotypically Chinese household DO have a certain level of excellence they have to, and usually do, uphold - whether it's in academics or music playing. It's a cultural fact. Chinese children joke about it, white children who hang around enough Chinese children joke about it, we all joke about it. And I think it's very reasonable to suggest that the reason why Chinese people usually DO excel in academics is because of the way they're raised. Chinese people can be very strict on their kids. Chua's article just concisely describes what it's like from the Chinese parents' side. And I think she did a good job. I felt my childhood flashing back as I read her article. And I didn't feel anger, or resentment at the memories. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987285 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987285
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 05:19:36 GMT
Helen Zou wrote "My parents emigrated from China to America when I was three. I was ..." What Amy Chua doesn't see is how many Chinese students in China and other parts of Asia have lost their desire to enter the workforce, instead they choose to stay in post graduate schools to prolong their student lives for as long as possible. They all become very good at study and in some way, enjoyed it, but they are nothing like Amy Chua. I guess that's what many referred to as "Robots" in the comments area.
I believe at some point, parents must stop disciplining their children and rely simply on their children to mature. If a kid has reached University and still doesn't get "it" then there's virtually nothing more a parent can do. Sometimes, even a few words from a stranger can do more than the constant nagging from a Tiger Mom. Let the kid fail and he/she can learn from it. That's what I like about the Western style of education.
I also believe there's no lower expectations among the Westerners either. Just pay a visit to the dressing room of the school's football team and you'll know why the players are willing to run through walls for their coach. It's just a different priority, that's all.
Amy Chua really needs to understand life is a marathon, not a sprint. Her kids may be high achievers right now but they've still got a long way to go before she can claim her story a "success" story. Even her own life hasn't reach greatness yet, I'm sure the jury is still out on whether she'll ever leave a mark behind in the legal field of study. To suddenly talk about Chinese and Western upbringing in any form of loose definition is not only audacious but also pretentious. It's in my opinion best for her to just focus on herself, her family and her observations of others and leave the ethnic comparison to the commentators. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987229 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987229
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 04:54:40 GMT
Chris Doe wrote "What Amy Chua doesn't see is how many Chinese students in China and ..." It's interesting what people project onto this article . I think you are probably incorrect. Although Ms. Chua has made some statements to couch what she said in the article/excerpt the fact still remains that she a) Understood that other parenting modalities existed at the time b) Understood that her way was more work c) Did it anyway.
Ergo we have two choices either Ms. Chua irrationally chose her parenting method (at least for a while) or she believed that her method of parenting was superior.
It's interesting that essentially she mocked her husband in a national publication (and an internationally published book). I'm not sure I'd tolerate that and I'm pretty sure my wife wouldn't tolerate that of me either. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987222 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987222
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 04:52:09 GMT
Kim Eagles wrote "It's interesting what people project onto this article . I think you are probably ..." While the author is entitled for her own opinion, she has no point discussing the issue as a representative of Asian mothers.
As a Taiwanese mother and one who may be more strict a mother than other Western moms, I am offended by the author’s contention that Asian mothers are superior to Western ones. The author does not speak on my behalf nor on behalf of any of my Asian mother friends.
I consider the ideas discussed in the article exaggerated and disrespectful to any reader Asian and Western alike.
I would expect a law professor to refrain from false representation and as one who claim to cherish her Chinese origin, to maintain further modesty over unjust pride. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987218 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987218
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 04:50:48 GMT
Ching-Yao Chen wrote "While the author is entitled for her own opinion, she has no point discussing the ..." While the author is entitled for her own opinion, she has no point discussing the issue as a representative of Asian mothers.
As a Taiwanese mother and one who may be more strict a mother than other Western moms, I am offended by the author’s contention that Asian mothers are superior to Western ones. The author does not speak on my behalf nor on behalf of any of my Asian mother friends.
I consider the ideas discussed in the article exaggerated and disrespectful to any reader Asian and Western alike.
I would expect a law professor to refrain from false representation and as one who claim to cherish her Chinese origin, to maintain further modesty over unjust pride. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987217 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987217
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 04:50:12 GMT
Ching-Yao Chen wrote "While the author is entitled for her own opinion, she has no point discussing the ..." Even mindless person knows what’s good and what she wants and when she wants it. It’s a humbling realization that we learn while raising children that communicating to our children requires more thinking than just demanding it.
It’s highly unfair that the author Amy Chua claimed to represent more than a billion people with her ways. That’s an act of tyranny that should have stayed in her house and not clutter rest of our journey. It’s people like Amy Chua that makes our journey less pleasant and make us miss more thoughtful people. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987204 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987204
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 04:42:38 GMT
Hyungwon Kang wrote "Even mindless person knows what’s good and what she wants and when ..." My 13-year old told me on last Thursday while driving him to his soccer practice, that his older brother was not letting him borrow a pair of sunglasses even when he's not using it. I suggested that he stops demanding it and try to persuade him to use it when he needs it. Yesterday, on the way to his soccer game, my son was wearing his brother’s sunglasses saying that he was able to borrow it.
While some seems more focused on the destination and the outcome, for the most part, the life is all about “the journey.” How we communicate our thoughts to people around us is an art, not just mindless chores of just spitting out our demands just because we can.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987203 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987203
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 04:42:10 GMT
Hyungwon Kang wrote "My 13-year old told me on last Thursday while driving him to ..." I am a Chinese. I don't like your way to educate kids.
Chinese mothers have different ways of teaching kids which are suitable for their own, there is no SUPEIOR WAY. It is not appropriate for you to represent all Chinese mothers. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987120 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987120
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 04:08:16 GMT
Wei Zheng wrote "I am a Chinese. I don't like your way to educate kids. ..."
I can attest to the fact that, I lived unconsciously for a long time. And now that I want to live a conscious, simple life (because it is important for humanity's survival not to over-consume our resources) I want to talk about racism with my nephew Kai, who lives in Tokyo. Sometimes, to arrive at simplicity, one must still learn about and weigh the complexities of our options, because we live in complex times. Of course, I'll need my sister's permission to talk about these things with Kai. But as Kai's American Aunty, I want to talk about racism with Kai in a controlled, safe environment, where I can have an honest discussion with him, why racism exists, etc. - and I want to make sure that he walks away from that conversation with the hope that Dr. King instilled in all of us when he told us about his Dream. (I am unable to re-print the speech here, because the King family still holds the copyright to the speech, but the words to the speech can be found at: http://www.usconstitution.net/dream.html)
In the speech, Dr. King talks about the obstacles of their day. And that his dream was that America would live up to its promise, a promise that all people are created equal. He read the speech in Washington D.C. in 1963. His ideas seem a distant memory from where American politics stand today. Same World, same issues. America is still the best experiment in the World. We're like the United Nations, in reality format. We are the best, and we are at the same time the worst. And we are the best representation of the World as it exists, full of the World's diversity of opinions, religions, customs, beliefs, beauty and contradictions. It's all here. If we are to survive, we must learn how to take care of our planet together, we MUST learn how to live together - to communicate effectively towards a common solution - with those who are different than ourselves, with those who we disagree with, with those who we wish not to speak to anymore. It has to happen here, in America. The best and the brightest representatives of the World live here, and many of us do believe in the American Dream.
I think about these things every day. But even I, at a personal level, struggle sometimes to communicate with people who are only slightly different than I on a daily basis. So all of us, including myself - we need to look at ourselves and become better, for the sake of our children, and the other beings that inhabit this planet with us. It's not just about us, it's also about our children's survival. Climate change is a REALITY. Even the website of the U.S. Government’s National Climactic Data Center (an arm of the U.S. Dept of Commerce) says that this is true. http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/faqs/index.html Listen to science, not rhetoric. We MUST fight for our survival, together. Every single one of us, in the end, has been entrusted with this World, and we must take responsibility for our individual contributions to the World. There is so much we can do. Let’s be kind to each other. Let’s be an example. Volunteer. Create positive dialogue. Be the change you wish to see in the World. Help someone that's different than you. Love. Talk to your neighbors. Get to know them. Let's work towards creating diverse communities that are unique to America. And let us remember what Dr. King said: "With this faith we will be able to transform the jangling discords of our nation into a beautiful symphony of brotherhood."
Namaste (We are One.)
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987024 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987024
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 03:36:19 GMT
Ayako Nagano wrote "I can attest to the fact that, I lived unconsciously for a long time. And now that ..." However, it took my American adult life for me to come to who I am today. It is not from my Japanese upbringing that I was able to learn about finding balance in my life. For me, the people who mentored me into my adulthood were entirely of America - its educational system, peers, literature, and mentors. I believe that because Asian parents raise their children in favor of nurturing the left side of their brains (which is all about memorizing, learning, and competing with others), my emotional right brain was not nurtured as much as it could have been as a child. I was a young woman raised in a strict Japanese household, who went to college at U.C. Berkeley. I came into my young adult life angry, conflicted, confused - and I had to throw away much of the World map and value systems that my parents had lovingly handed to me because they didn't make sense in My world - and I had to test out each of those rules for myself, because I did not have a role model to which I could look to that had my upbringing and outside reality.
Today, as a fully-initiated American, I seek a balanced-life, one that is an in-between of a lot of the things I have learned. My parents did a brilliant job nurturing my left brain (ten years of piano - I never enjoyed it as a kid, a bilingual education, as well as encouraging me through my three degrees in law - a B.S., J.D., and LL.M. in Tax). They also gave me the fundamental tools with which to nurture my right brain with when I finished my left brain training - the simplicity of love, the heroism to care about others, and the ability to appreciate love even if it is never verbalized. But it took years of therapy and many many self-help books for me to understand what balance meant in my life. I think an American parent might have been able to teach me more about balance, and I think that would have been a valuable upbringing as well.
My point is that I think Americans are just debating the process in which a child is ideally reared in America, because we love our children. Asian parents might sometimes do a better job nurturing the left brain - the competitive, mathematical brain - but Caucasian parents might tend to do a better job nurturing the right brain - thereby rearing a more balanced child. Neither is wrong, as long as the child eventually is able to find balance in their life.
The problem is, there are plenty of people in the world who are not balanced - and when we are unbalanced, we tend to lose the ability to think things through to its conclusion. The human brain is naturally wired in such a way that we focus on the negative external inputs (and often ignore the positive ones that are equally present) because that was important for our survival in the wild. Without a balanced emotional brain, humans are stuck in a negative thought cycle. Also, the daily stresses in our lives make us focus on our short term goals, at the expense of a long term Vision about ourselves and the World. (See Buddha's Brain, "the practical neuroscience of happiness, love & wisdom" @ http://www.amazon.com/Buddhas-Brain-Practical-Neuroscience-Happiness/dp/1572246952.) Unfortunately, people who lack balance worry more about how other people perceive them and don't work on their inner happiness. These same people tend to try to find happiness externally, and often seek a patina of material wealth that pushes the limits of our consumption of the Earth's resources - a green lawn in the front yard (even in a desert like Los Angeles), the newest flat screen TV, two large petroleum-fueled status symbols in their garage, etc. - which is ultimately not good for our environment.
I think that is the problem with focusing a child's development so much on the left, competitive brain – no matter what race or ethnicity we come from. Yes, they score well on tests - but are they mature, well-balanced human beings who can temper the negative tendencies of our brain with a more positive, hopeful, and loving response towards not just ourselves but for other beings as well?
(Please see next entry for more ...) http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987017 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987017
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 03:35:31 GMT
Ayako Nagano wrote "However, it took my American adult life for me to come to who I ..." Let us all be reminded that today, we are in observance of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s birthday.
Dr. King's "I have a dream" speech was all about believing, despite the adversity. His speech stood for hope, and a fundamental belief in the American Dream. Today, the existence of the American Dream is under constant attack by the powers that be. For example, recently the Dream Act failed passage in Congress. It would have allowed young children of illegal immigrants a hope for legal status if they worked hard and either served in the military or finished college. No matter how you cut it, the Dream Act was about the American Dream - that if you worked hard, you could succeed in this World. At the same time Arizona is under intense focus in the news for being outspoken about the fact that they believe racial profiling is an appropriate way to control the illegal immigration issue in their state. To further confuse the issues, a democratic Congresswoman from Arizona, Gabrielle Giffords was shot in the head last week by a crazy man (the reason is not yet known), while six of the people near her were shot dead, and eighteen others were wounded. Indeed, my heart is weighed down by the weight of the way in which Americans have come to express our opinions, and also the decisions we have made against hope.
My friend and co-worker Liz sent me the link to this article. She is outraged not by the content of the article, but the vitriol and finger pointing that ensued in the comment section thereafter. Liz, being a mother of two young children and being half Caucasian and half Asian, struggles with parenting issues on a daily basis. She says that she is, in fact, stricter towards her children than the average White parent. But she is also more reasonable than the average Asian parent. In her own words, this is what she wrote:
"I am less disappointed with the whole notion that my parenting doesn't fit neatly into any particular category (in fact, I suspect that most people would find themselves straddling some lines-- this is America after all. also, as a hybrid girl my whole life, i have never fit neatly anywhere so why would my parenting choices?), but rather, that the tone of the comments are, on the whole, defensive, offensive, and often attack race. The article, despite its inflammatory title, is actually about the choices we make as parents. I wonder how many of those 6,000+ comments were written by people who made it past the headline? Or were able to get past the headline enough to actually process what they were reading through something other than the knee jerk "protect my peeps" filter that is pretty much a given in any forum, but most certainly in our political discourse. How are we ever going to have honest discussions that actually mean anything if we can't stop feeling that we need to protect those things we can't change (like our race or orientation) or things we can (like any choice or decision we make) from scrutiny or judgment? I mean seriously, why can't we sometimes just agree to disagree?"
Personally, I believe that America is the greatest social experiment ever devised by humans. This is the land in which the World can debate about what our future will look like - and how we raise our children.
True to stereotype, my own Japanese parents were very much disciplinarians when I was growing up in Los Angeles. I think they were stricter than even the average Japanese parent. As the story goes - when I was ten years old, I told my father that I wanted to stop studying Japanese (we went to Saturday school, much like Jewish kids go to Jewish school, and we tended to cram all of our homework on Friday evenings). Before I knew it, I had a bowl of miso soup thrown at me and I was wearing it. I never ever suggested that I give up Japanese again. And thanks to my father, I am the most bilingual Japanese-English speaker that I know (though I am definitely stronger on the English side - my particular combination of strengths is rare). I read, write and speak both languages fluently. Thanks to Dad, I have never had any trouble getting a job. And being a lawyer was also his grand idea. It's something that I did because I didn't know what else I was going to do with my life. It was the default trajectory that he had programmed in my head from when I was very young. "You're going to be a lawyer," he would say. But now, more than ten years into the profession and after a long love/hate struggle with it, I have shaped my career into something that I can live with, in which I work at home, control my own hours, volunteer a lot, and work with only the people I want to work with - people who can separate how they relate to their peers from the poison and the negativity of the World or the Profession.
(Please see next entry for more ...)
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987007 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1987007
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 03:34:07 GMT
Ayako Nagano wrote "Let us all be reminded that today, we are in observance of Dr. Martin Luther ..." Why should we read Amy Chua's book(s)? To give her more money?
If Robert De Niro's mum ever wrote a book about how her son dropped out of HS at 16 but still won the Academy Awards, I'll be the more than happy to hand over my money for a copy. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986868 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986868
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 02:51:44 GMT
Chris Doe wrote "Why should we read Amy Chua's book(s)? To give her more ..." Charles,
Don't you agree people who watch TV and participate in school plays also achieve success in their lives? Golden Globe just handed out their awards yesterday, the fact that many of us watched it and enjoyed the good shows getting rewarded says a lot about the TV's achievement in its own right.
I'm not sure if Amy Chua prohibited her daughters from watching TV all of their lives or just on certain nights. Judging by her words, I can only assume the former is true. If that's indeed the case, then I stand by my words: she's very extreme.
No one is saying striving for achievement is not something a parent should plant in his kids' head, but there're many different ways to do it. If Amy Chua's 10 bullet points is the right way, we might as well do without HBO, Wii, Facebook and many others from now on. I'm sure 99.9% of people succeeded while still enjoying many of the 10 bullet points in Amy Chua's article and many more will continue to succeed in this fashion. So, why change? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986844 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986844
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 02:40:49 GMT
Chris Doe wrote "Charles,Don't you agree people who watch TV and participate in school ..." Almost 7000 comments just from the interview and snippet that ran in the WSJ; has anyone actually read the entire book? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986816 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986816
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 02:31:10 GMT
William Seth wrote "Almost 7000 comments just from the interview and snippet that ran in the WSJ; has ..." I sincerely apologize, I thought you were putting responsibility on WSJ only. I believe Amy Chua has just as much responsibility for this title as the WSJ editors.
The only way to really understand what goes on in Amy Chua's head is to read her book(s), but I wouldn't waste my money on it and quite frankly, I don't really care. Some comments here even suggested she's only writing this article for more publicity for her book. I wouldn't go that far, but the actual fact is she's the one counting the dollars rolling in while we're the ones counting how many times we've read her uninspiring writings. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986784 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986784
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 02:17:44 GMT
Chris Doe wrote "I sincerely apologize, I thought you were putting responsibility on WSJ ..." I read Prof. Chua's article to seek tips for parenting, and did find some examples, both positive and negative. I also have learned from personal testimonies, some with happy ending and other with sad ending. But I have to say that a large number of comments are so judgmental, assertive, uncivil, and speculative.
Prof. Chua already defines the word "Chinese" so loosely as to be almost meaningless. She already said that some parts are tongue-in-cheek. She already said that she had changed her style. What she wrote was not a how-to guide, but a record of and a reflection on a personal journey.
It is my impression that many made their comments less on the content of the article than on its title. Most intelligent persons would refrain from using the word “superior” to describe a culture. The Chinese culture is heavily influenced by Confucianism. The school of thoughts is just of one of several major ones. It is characterized by modesty and humility. Confucius says, while traveling with three persons, I definitely can find my teacher among them. He also says, I do not know about life, so how can I know about death? He also says, all humans are educable, and each should be taught differently. I have not made up those quotes. So to call Chinese culture superior is anti-Confucius.
If you want to learn the so-called Chinese style, why not read Confucius's Analects? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986727 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986727
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 01:55:48 GMT
shaohua hu wrote "I read Prof. Chua's article to seek tips for parenting, and did find ..." Pretty amazing comments Mr. Sarkar...coming from a man who has made numerous comments on here that are blatantly, shockingly, racist, overwhelmingly anti-American/Western/Caucasian, and consistently (pathologically, actually...) exhibiting narcissistic personality disorder traits (which of course is inevitably all-about extreme insecurity issues). You have hounded several individuals on here (including myself), then cried "cyberstalking" when you get your virtual-a__ kicked. You can "dish it out" as they say, but you sure "can't take it when it comes back". The level of hypocrisy you have exhibited is staggering. We've been told over and over that what really matters in life to you and your offspring....is money. Period...Your StrawMen are burning. Perhaps you should take some time off for some serious "navel-gazing"...might do you some good. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986660 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986660
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 01:33:38 GMT
dan herrin wrote "Pretty amazing comments Mr. Sarkar...coming from a man who has ..." Chris,
Because I wasn't certain whether Chua was serious or not, I actually read the whole article a couple of times and certain sections even once or twice more to be sure. I'm fairly certain she is serious and it is not a satire.
I have responded to another comment of yours (under Mary Chen's post above). There, I said that Chua should not have used the label "Chinese" as she admitted that she is using the term loosely. I agree with you that along with WSJ, Chua should take responsibility for making this an East vs West argument. However, the WSJ have the extra burden of journalistic responsibility.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986596 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986596
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 01:15:09 GMT
David Ho wrote "Chris,Because I wasn't certain whether Chua was serious or not, I actually ..." Wow, is this article setting records for most read most commented on for WSJ? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986560 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986560
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 01:02:17 GMT
William Hambley wrote "Wow, is this article setting records for most read most commented on for WSJ?" David,
Have you read the entire article? She's used the loose term "Chinese" more than 40 times and the loose term "Western" close to 30 times in her short article. Do you really think WSJ should be solely responsible for turning this into a East vs. West thing? Juding by Amy Chua's assertion on her style of upbringing and criticism on the Western style of upbringing, do you think she has absolutely no intention, beyond reasonable doubt, of comparing Chinese upbringing with the Western upbringing to see which one is superior? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986550 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986550
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 00:59:14 GMT
Chris Doe wrote "David, Have you read the entire article? She's used the loose term &..." History is coming. I am not living in ancient China. Needless to mention Yoyo Ma and Langlang, I saw many muscial talented youth myself. Though I am a huge fan of Jasch Heifetz.
I don't know how many Chinese kids you have been worked with. I know a handful of them and I have raised one. What you said is completly untrue. Their literature knowlege is beyond your imagination. In general, I agree with you about our current edcation system. But that is nothing to do with Chinese kids in general. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986541 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986541
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 00:56:06 GMT
Helen Chen wrote "History is coming. I am not living in ancient China. Needless to mention Yoyo ..." I get along just fine without HBO, Wii and Facebook. You seem to have missed a very important element of the article. Achievement IN ITSELF is fun. There's nothing like the rush of conquering a hard subject. But Western parents all too often make excuses for failure of their kids to achieve. How many times have I heard "I don't do well in that subject because I don't like it?" Too many. I should be hearing "now that I'm doing well in that subject - because I finally buckled down and put in the work needed to master it - I like that subject."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986524 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986524
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 00:50:17 GMT
Charles Little wrote "I get along just fine without HBO, Wii and Facebook. You ..." How about simply "Why Strict Parenting is Superior"?
Chua should also not have labeled her parenting method as Chinese when she herself admitted that the term is used "loosely". http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986496 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986496
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 00:41:54 GMT
David Ho wrote "How about simply "Why Strict Parenting is Superior"? Chua should ..." I agree with you, after reading the article, I think the author is a very deceitful person willing to say anything for a buck! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986488 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986488
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 00:38:53 GMT
jason Lee wrote "I agree with you, after reading the article, I think the author is a very ..." Yes, the article has gotten a lot of people's feathers up but I don't think it is because of the topic of parenting. Rather, it is due to sensational title that the WSJ editors chose for the article. They made it into a East vs. West thing. This has provoked many ugly comments about Chinese and other Asians that have nothing to do with how to raise children.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986482 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986482
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 00:37:09 GMT
David Ho wrote "Yes, the article has gotten a lot of people's feathers up but I don't ..." How fun can it be growing up without TV and computer games? Even if Amy Chua's is talking it lightly, there's nothing light about the disciplining. If we all follow her footstep, there'll be no HBO, Wii and Facebook in this world any more. I still believe she's very extreme. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986477 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986477
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 00:35:48 GMT
Chris Doe wrote "How fun can it be growing up without TV and computer games? Even if ..." "If you think the census or nih data lacks statistical significance or is out of date, then go take it up with the census and the nih."
And here we are with a classic case of bullying. Apratim you are taking someone down a peg on something you know pretty close to zero about.
Statistical significance - which somehow you don't know what that is either. Only is in reference with regard to a comparison (specifically to chance). US Census isn't concerned with significance (but they should publish error somewhere) because the census doesn't implicitly make any comparisons. So each statistic might be accurate in within some established error (or CI). That doesn't mean that any comparison between values is also significant.
I have a hard time believing that you went to post-secondary school for anything remotely science related and not know this. First year physics in our institution shows students how to calculate error to the point of doing partial derivatives to show how error propagation works. A first year stats class would teach you about what a CI and a CL are and the consequence of comparing two values with an overlapping CI.
So no it's not the Census's problem that you are making a boneheaded comparison and assuming the values are at least 14% accurate. While there isn't much data on the accuracy of the self-reporting in the census. There was a study (Moyer et al) which measured peoples self-confidence in their financial estimates and the same people who gave the estimate only ranked their confidence at 83% (for themselves) and 60% (for their spouses). Meaning that if their error estimates are accurate then the difference isn't significant.
This doesn't even touch on the fact that you are trying to interpolate individual conclusions from aggregate data. Which means you need to control for a range of biases.
"If you did this in a college paper you would get an F"
As a contrast you have plugged the caliber of your school more than once. If the implication is that you got any arguments like the stuff you're posting past your profs. Then they probably weren't very good or didn't care. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986461 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986461
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 00:29:57 GMT
Kim Eagles wrote ""If you think the census or nih data lacks statistical significance or is out of ..." To people with ignorant, there is no cure. There will be always people who are locked in their own sterotype box can't see through their sunglasses. However, you made very good point. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986455 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986455
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 00:26:20 GMT
Helen Chen wrote "To people with ignorant, there is no cure. There will be always people who are locked in their own sterotype box ..." I guess you don't know who started yahoo.com, youtube.com and zappos.com. Do your research first. BTW, how many companies have you started? Any successful ones like youtube or zappos? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986452 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986452
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 00:25:23 GMT
Diane Chen wrote "I guess you don't know who started yahoo.com, youtube.com and zappos.com. ..." "There is no point in continuing this discussion till you take that math course that I recommended."
Is it my mistake or there is some genuine condescension in the sentence above? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986450 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986450
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 00:25:12 GMT
Shuvo Datta wrote ""There is no point in continuing this discussion till you take that math course that I ..." Rohan,
Who doesn't know The attack on Pearl Harbor? The attach was carried out by Japan, NOT Japanese-Americans.
There is a BIG difference between Japanese in Japan and Japanese-Americans in US, or else why in 1988, Congress passed and President Ronald Reagan signed legislation which apologized for the internment on behalf of the U.S. government. The legislation said that government actions were based on "race prejudice, war hysteria, and a failure of political leadership".
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986439 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986439
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 00:20:12 GMT
Diane Chen wrote "Rohan,Who doesn't know The attack on Pearl Harbor? The attach was carried out by ..." Dr Chu was born and raised in the US. Liz Smith is not saying that there is anything wrong with ethnic Chinese, but her comments relate to the alledged superiority of a highly rigid education.
Personally I see the truth lying in the middle: teaching children discipline is good, as habits enforce character (both the San Zi Jing and Plutach agree on this), but there is a difference between enforcing discipline and subjecting children to a tight regimen of enforced activities. Sparta's society did not last. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986421 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986421
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 00:14:04 GMT
Ka-Tuan Ong wrote "Dr Chu was born and raised in the US. Liz Smith is not saying that there is anything wrong with ..." Having read the entire article, I believe WSJ has chosen the right title.
How would you have titled it? "Western parents are not as strict as Chinese parents" or "Western mums can't do it but Chinese mums can. Here's how"? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986420 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986420
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 00:14:03 GMT
Chris Doe wrote "Having read the entire article, I believe WSJ has chosen the right ..." Thank you Liz for shedding some light and truth on this http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986407 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986407
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 00:08:58 GMT
Kip Caven wrote "Thank you Liz for shedding some light and truth on this" got it..my mistake.. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986400 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986400
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 00:07:04 GMT
Shuvo Datta wrote "got it..my mistake.." Helping your children to the best of your ability is great...............but not allowing them to participate in things young girls all over the states is just a little more than disturbing. Theres got to be a better way to meet in the middle somehow to keep everyone happy. If the mother wont give in, theres gonna be some GIANT therapy bills down the road http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986395 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986395
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 00:06:25 GMT
Kip Caven wrote "Helping your children to the best of your ability is great...............but not allowing them to participate in ..." This article hit many Americans' raw nerves, and it would probably be well to ask why that is. I would suggest that it is because as Americans, we have become soft. Deep down at least, we know it, and we are quite insecure about it. It affects the way we raise our children as well as other aspects of our life and culture, including business and politics.
http://ostrichchaperon.typepad.com/blog/2010/02/americas-enemies-are-largely-correct-when-they-say-we-are-soft-weak-and-stupid-link-to-american-thin.html
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986388 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986388
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 00:02:44 GMT
Bryan Prescott wrote "This article hit many Americans' raw nerves, and it would probably be well to ask ..." People's Republic of China
List of Chinese Nobel laureates
Liu Xiaobo, Peace, 2010
Ei'ichi Negishi*, Chemistry, 2010
Charles K. Kao, Physics, 2009
Roger Y. Tsien, Chemistry, 2008
Gao Xingjian*, Literature, 2000
Daniel C. Tsui, Physics, 1998
Edmond H. Fischer*, Medicine/Physiology, 1992
Tenzin Gyatso (The 14th Dalai Lama), Peace, 1989
Samuel C. C. Ting, Physics, 1976
Chen Ning Yang, Physics, 1957
Tsung-Dao Lee, Physics, 1957
Walter Houser Brattain*, Physics, 1956
[edit]
Taiwan (Republic of China)
List of Ethnic Chinese Nobel laureates
Yuan Tseh Lee, Chemistry, 1986 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986378 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986378
Tue, 18 Jan 2011 00:00:23 GMT
mary Chen wrote "People's Republic of ChinaList of Chinese Nobel laureatesLiu Xiaobo, Peace, ..." WSJ,
The tittle you made for the Chua's essay is a false statement. What are you going to do about it? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986362 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986362
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 23:55:21 GMT
mary Chen wrote "WSJ,The tittle you made for the Chua's essay is a false statement. What are you ..." Dr. Steven Chu, Secretary of Energy
As United States Secretary of Energy, Dr. Steven Chu is charged with helping implement President Obama's ambitious agenda to invest in clean energy, reduce our dependence on foreign oil, address the global climate crisis, and create millions of new jobs.
Dr. Chu is a distinguished scientist and co-winner of the Nobel Prize for Physics (1997). He has devoted his recent scientific career to the search for new solutions to our energy challenges and stopping global climate change - a mission he continues with even greater urgency as Secretary of Energy.
Prior to his appointment, Dr. Chu was the Director of the Department of Energy's Lawrence Berkeley National Lab, where he led the lab in pursuit of alternative and renewable energy technologies. He also taught at the University of California as a Professor of Physics and Professor of Molecular and Cell Biology. Previously, he held positions at Stanford University and AT&T Bell Laboratories.
Dr. Chu's research in atomic physics, quantum electronics, polymer and biophysics includes tests of fundamental theories in physics, the development of methods to laser cool and trap atoms, atom interferometry, the development of the first atomic fountain, and the manipulation and study of polymers and biological systems at the single molecule level. While at Stanford, he helped start Bio-X, a multi-disciplinary initiative that brings together the physical and biological sciences with engineering and medicine.
The holder of 10 patents, Dr. Chu has published nearly 250 scientific and technical papers. He remains active with his research group and has recently published work on general relativity and single molecule biology and biophysics that includes sub-nanometer molecular imaging with optical microscopy, cadherin adhesion, neural vesicle fusion, and nerve growth factor transport. About 30 alumni of his research group have gone on to become professors in their own right and have been recognized by dozens of prizes and awards.
Dr. Chu is a member of the National Academy of Sciences, the American Philosophical Society, the Chinese Academy of Sciences, Academia Sinica, the Korean Academy of Sciences and Technology and numerous other civic and professional organizations. He received an A.B. degree in mathematics, a B.S. degree in physics from the University of Rochester, and a Ph.D. in physics from the University of California, Berkeley as well as honorary degrees from 15 universities.
Dr. Chu was born in Saint Louis, Missouri in 1948. He is married to Dr. Jean Chu, who holds a D.Phil. in Physics from Oxford and has served as chief of staff to two Stanford University presidents as well as Dean of Admissions. Secretary Chu has two grown sons, Geoffrey and Michael, by a previous marriage.
In announcing Dr. Chu's selection, President Obama said, "The future of our economy and national security is inextricably linked to one challenge: energy. Steven has blazed new trails as a scientist, teacher, and administrator, and has recently led the Berkeley National Laboratory in pursuit of new alternative and renewable energies. He is uniquely suited to be our next Secretary of Energy as we make this pursuit a guiding purpose of the Department of Energy, as well as a national mission." Dr. Chu was sworn into office as the 12th Secretary of Energy on January 21, 2009. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986355 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986355
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 23:53:11 GMT
mary Chen wrote "Dr. Steven Chu, Secretary of EnergyAs United States Secretary of Energy, Dr. ..." "do you think getting an "A-" in a Math test is misbehaving?"
Mr. Datta,
Do you think beating a child is okay for any type of misbehaving?
I want to make sure you understand that I'm asking Xue Wen a rhetorical question. I'm saying that you could be Christian and not have to take every verse in the Bible literally AND you could be Confucian and not have to follow every command ascribed to Confucius.
Now to answer your question, No, I do not believe that getting a A- is misbehaving, but that is not relevant. I'm sure someone does...
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986340 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986340
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 23:46:37 GMT
David Ho wrote ""do you think getting an "A-" in a Math test is misbehaving?&..." Chinese have many musical instruments used in more than a dozen formats of Chinese operas. Sadly, both the instruments and operas are disappearing faster than the wild giant panda.
I also agree hardly any Chinese kids read the old literature masterpiece in their entirety any more. These days, more kids learn Three Kingdom from the computer game than from the books. To be fair, it's not just Chinese, it's a common theme across the globe: kids spent more time on facebook than facing a real book.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986325 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986325
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 23:41:09 GMT
Chris Doe wrote "Chinese have many musical instruments used in more than a dozen formats of ..." The last I checked the Chinese have not invented anything of significance in the last 75 Years. All those "Chinese Mother's" teach their children how to do is memorize. They are not thinkers who help develope anything. Think how life would be different if 1. Bill Gates 1. Steve Jobs and 3. Jonas Salk had Chinese mothers. We would not have the internet, our Ipod, our iphones or the cure for Polio. Everyone should thank there lucky stars for great american thinkers who have developed the cure for great ailments, invented the car the television and great universities. When was the last time you heard of anyone trying to get into a University in China. The "thing" great chinese mother's speaks for itself.
Also, isn't it interesting that with all the author learned from her great chinese mother she went and married a white guy. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986322 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986322
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 23:40:02 GMT
liz smith wrote "The last I checked the Chinese have not invented anything of significance in the last 75 ..." The irony of it all is that in real terms, Amy Chua is not even Chinese! She may look Chinese, being of Chinese ethnicity but she is anything but! In fact, she represents the worse type of Chinese hybrid, the Philipino Chinese, given to the worse type of avarice typified by the successful Philipino elite. No amount of material possessions is ever enough for their greed! Thus, the few Philipino elite families holds 99 per cent of its country's wealth leaving the native Philipino of Malay descent constantly poor and struggling! It's quite clear that her paerents have brought their avaracious attitude to the US with them and instilled it, apparently, very strongly in her daughter! To say that she represents a Chinese is an insult to all who are truly Chinese.
There is no argument that working hard and smart is the key to acievement in life and that material wealth is crucial to a 'healthy' existence. It is also a truism that instiling a basic discipline and sense of achievement are important for the young. As each child is different and have different talents and potential, ways of guiding each and encouraging their development must necessarily be different. It calls for sensitivity and love of the child. This one style fits all as advocated by Amy Chua is simply a reflection of her own insecurity, typical of a Philipino Chinese syndrome whether she knows it or not. This same insecurity has caused many mothers of different cultures be it Jewish, Chinese or Korean to impose this draconian style of parenting.
I am a Chinese parent, myself, though equally conversant in Chinese and English; has English as my ligua franca and as have my children. Two are in their early thirties and are doing exceptionally well, one as a VP of a major US bank and the other running his multimillion business. To me they are to be proud of not because they are doing well materially but because they have displayed a compassion for those less fortunate and are upright men. This is what a Western and Christian-oriented education provides; a sense of confidence in one's ability to achieve and an understanding that there are many others who may not be as fortunate. Yes they were good students, one inclined to hard work, to study whilst the other to individualism. Western education has allowed for them to be guided differently in recognising their individual inclinations. They may not be Carnegie-Hall material but when has that been the only hallmark for success. Technical prowess do not for success make. Rather a successful person is surely one who having achieved, ensure he provides for others' sucesses or make a real difference to society.
The kind of success that Amy Chua recognises is a narrow one and would result in a Philipino situation where the rich would never have enough and the poor have nothing. Her kind of success is in a sense a mediocre kind, if you can count being a professor, a success. She is good at studies and knowledge regurgitation like her children but one doubts that she adds to creative discourse. With more of her type in Yale and soon the education there would become third rate.
Whilst we agree that hard work and discipline are essential for achievement I would rather we have one philantrophic Bill Gates than a billion selfish millionaire Chinese or any other race for that matter. It is clear that Amy Chua has despite being borned and bred in the US, not assimilated or learned the good points of being an American. I am not sure that she would fit into the modern Chinese nation either. A southern Chinese albeit a Philipino hybird would find the depth of a 'Chinese gentleman' too steep for their shallow psyche! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986308 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986308
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 23:34:17 GMT
Aussie Louis wrote "The irony of it all is that in real terms, Amy Chua is not even Chinese! She may ..." Don't argue with me, read the book yourself. It is well documented. You're going to have to refute a lot of historical evidence. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986307 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986307
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 23:33:47 GMT
xue wen wrote "Don't argue with me, read the book yourself. It is well documented. You're going to ..." God bless America, for it has brought a dinosaur back to life. No doubt Chinese's and many other Asian's education systems are oppressive, but I can quite confidently challenge anyone to find another mother like Amy Chua in Asia. If what she commonly observes in America is true i.e. Chinese migrants' kids get scolded at home for scoring an A-, then I can only say there's something very very wrong with America.
For anyone who's grown up in the Chinese societies in the last 30 years would know Chinese plays computer games all the time, read more Manga and watch more Anime than the rest of the world combined and sing in karaoke and shop in teenager-specialized stores as if it's thier jobs. What's more, Chinese kids also play baseball, basketball, badminton and many other sports as well. How else can Yao Ming and Chien-Ming Wang compete in the highest level of their respective sport if they were striaight A students who played 2 instruments?
These days, calling one's own child "Garbage" in front of a table of guests would be considered mental anywhere in China. Publishing it in books and on papers is not only unheard of, it'd be down right vulgar and distasteful. Yet, Amy Chua's ground breaking book is among the best-sellers in the supposedly most advanced nation in the world. Isn't it something for all of us to have a good think about? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986291 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986291
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 23:26:52 GMT
Chris Doe wrote "God bless America, for it has brought a dinosaur back to life. No doubt Chinese's and ..." I am not here to prove you are wrong. I just like to let you know that your contact with Chinese people is very limited. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986287 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986287
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 23:25:33 GMT
Helen Chen wrote "I am not here to prove you are wrong. I just like to let ..." Thank you for that thoughtful, intelligent and interesting comment, Stuart. Most informative. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986282 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986282
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 23:22:29 GMT
Anne-Marie Jefferson wrote "Thank you for that thoughtful, intelligent and interesting comment, Stuart. Most informative." Shang- No need to be sensitive or offended. We all know better Chua does not speak for all Chinese or all Chinese mothers. By the way, what is a true 'Chinese mother' ? Are you generalizing too? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986270 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986270
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 23:15:06 GMT
Al Shum wrote "Shang- No need to be sensitive or offended. We all know better Chua does not ..." I think that the bigger crime here is that her children are being deprived of the rich history of their culture. Why are these childeren being forced to practice violin when they could be reading literature by Confucious, Menscius, and Liu Zi which build the wisdom to make true contributions to society? Does she really have that shallow of a view of success?
It is a bit disheartening that I have never even met a Chinese child or young adult who has even read Journey to the West, Outlaws of the Marsh, or Red Mansion in thier entirety. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986240 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986240
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 23:04:24 GMT
Jeffrey Gibson wrote "I think that the bigger crime here is that her children are being deprived of the rich ..." "one cannot be a Christian if he does not beat his child if the child misbehaves"
do you think getting an "A-" in a Math test is misbehaving? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986235 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986235
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 23:02:32 GMT
Shuvo Datta wrote ""one cannot be a Christian if he does not beat his child if the child ..." Im an American from the Indian community. Theres a lot of stuff I can look back at my childhood and relate too. No dating, no sleepovers, must make A's, etc, etc. Being one of four kids though I can definitely see my parents were different to each of us. For them it was about reaching your personal potential. While they were very tough with me, not so much towards my more athletic minded brother. He was still a straight A student but sports let him build his self confidence. I scored much higher on SAT's but he's the CEO now and Im just a partner. As for our youngest sibling with autism - we never had a problem with her. We gave her love and enough discipline so she doesnt use her weaknesses as excuses. She is a star volunteer and lovely person. When I look around at our Indian community almost all the children did very well. (In fact we are the highest income Ethnic group in America - higher than Jews).
BUT - I cannot endorse this article. The reason why we did so well is that parents took strict schooling from India and combined it with individuality and leadership opportunities in American culture. I would have been nothing in India but in the US I learned many social skills from networking to negotiating to just plain having a good time. I dont know many Chinese but I would like to go out on a limb and venture that most Chinese Americans raise their children like I was brought up. Its more a function of being a second generation immigrant versus being Chinese or Indian. I think the way the author brings up her children may work for her but it is too extreme to use on all children. I had way to short a temper to put up with a mom like that and would have never played Piano again if she threatened to take away my toys. I mean whats wrong with normal punishment like cut the lawn or sit in your room?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986225 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986225
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 22:59:11 GMT
Raj Shatru wrote "Im an American from the Indian community. Theres a lot of stuff I can ..." A loving mother could be in thousands of different ways. It is true that every mother wish to raise a baby Einstein. We heard so many successful stories about raising math whizzes and music prodigies. The cruel reality is that only one in a hundred thousand mothers is lucky enough to have such potential child to work with. For rest of us, we are destined to raise ordinary kids as our self. The best we can do is to nurture them, love them, build a solid foundation for their future development, including education, morale values etc.
People tend to judge others based on their own value, experiences, culture and traditions. I trust Ms Chua is a super intelligent mother who understands her children so well and knows how to bring the best out of them in her own way. I wish I could be as half of tough as Ms Chua that I didn’t end up “wasting” a prodigy in my own hands. When my child left for college a few years ago, he said “mom, I wish you had pushed me harder because you know I am a super lazy boy who won’t do it until it’s absolutely necessary”. But I knew I couldn’t do it even I was given a second chance. During those years, I was challenged many times by my child to check into my own motivation. I remember setting in the audience to hear my child’s name being announced over and over again. He went up to the stage to receive his trophy or medal and then brought it to me in front of everybody “this is for you, mom”. We had his trophies and medals displayed in our living room for quite a long time until I heard this. “What do you mean I didn’t do enough? I earned all of these for you.” I went out to find two huge storage boxes and put everything away into the closet until today. There is nothing wrong for parents to be proud of their children’ achievements. But at the same time, I don’t want to limit my child’s thinking to the physical boundary. He can be smart and successful. But he cannot be ignorant and arrogant. He cannot view himself as superior to others. His confidence has to be based on his objective judgment about his true capability and of others.
Although I am the first generation immigrant and a typical Chinese mother, I don’t think I am half way close to what “stereotyped” Chinese mother could to their children. I had too much worries about killing my child’s originality and creativity through endless practice and exercise, which could be crucial to bring out certain talent from a child prodigy. What I can give to my child is limited, but my love is limitless. I happen to find one of his English Essay (sophomore in high school) to share with you. Our children are not machines. Our children are unique individuals who hold the future of mankind.
This I Believe (May 17, 2008)
It is often said that no two people are exactly alike. With twenty three chromosomes containing a cumulative total of over three billion base pairs, that assertion ultimately seems plausible. However, Society refuses to let such a blasphemous quip become reality. Essentially, it works like the machinations of the Matrix; it controls, dominates our subconscious, ultimately deciding who we are as individuals. Yet its pushes and pulls incessantly urge for us to be something “more,” a part of something “greater.” Collectively, we are the components of society – we have been contracted to provide for it, nurture it, help it to grow; its sustenance – conformity. However, there exists a select group of individuals capable of changing their destiny, capable of casting off society’s mold. They are the “Neo”s of our Societal Matrix, and they can influence on a level different from any collective group of people. They can alter destiny.
When I was young, I believed that I would alter destiny, that I would be the One. I would be the one to prove the Riemann hypothesis, I would be the one to substantiate the claims of String Theory. I would be the one to, with the aid of a steady eye and fast fingers (and an even faster processor) control the information superhighway. I would, in my own unique way, make a name for myself. I would be remembered.
When I was young, I was filled with audacious, limitless dreams. Tomorrow was at my beck and call, and my future was at my command. I would look into destiny’s mirror and I would see someone great, someone important looking back at me. The possibilities were endless – but only the good ones, of course.
Now, I am plunged into the icy cold depths of reality. I realize that my ability is not limitless. And I have now come to terms with the fact that, like everyone else, I have a cup of milk in the morning while trying to will the coming school day away, that I lug home a sixth of my body weight in books five days a week. That I am just another high school kid. Because there can only be one Superman. And I am not Christopher Reeve.
In spite of all this, I believe in the uniqueness of the individual. I believe that, as people, we search for our own unique http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986202 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986202
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 22:49:14 GMT
Helen Chen wrote "A loving mother could be in thousands of different ways. It is true that every mother wish to ..." Drying my eyes on this post. You're a good kid and good luck to you, my friend! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986197 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986197
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 22:47:50 GMT
Kathy Caldwell wrote "Drying my eyes on this post. You're a good kid and good luck to you, ..." So, all Asians follow the Confucian way? Are there not Taoist, Buddhist, Christians, atheist amongst Asians? Even if one is a Confucian, does she need to follow everything that was supposedly said by Confucius?
Here's a quote from the Bible:
Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. - Proverbs 23:13-14
So according to you, one cannot be a Christian if he does not beat his child if the child misbehaves?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986161 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986161
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 22:35:15 GMT
David Ho wrote "So, all Asians follow the Confucian way? Are there not Taoist, Buddhist, Christians, atheist ..." Mr. Easlick,
I am sure that you have a great mom who raised you to be a respectful global citizen. So what would she say to a son when he makes a not so respectful comment such as "... Chinese children grow up to run governments that oppress minority groups"?
And despite their mom's strict parenting method, I don't think Sophia and Lulu are going to oppress any minority groups (at least I hope not). We are talking about Chua's way of raising kids, right? Quite a leap from that to oppressing minorities, don't you think? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986107 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986107
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 22:13:24 GMT
David Ho wrote "Mr. Easlick,I am sure that you have a great mom who ..." please...for the love of humanity, stop commenting to every post. I am curious to read peoples opinions on the article and give their personal experiences, I am sick of having to scroll past your 1,000K+ comments. Go to a park...read a book....just please stop giving your two cents to every poster http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986104 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986104
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 22:12:01 GMT
Ingy Yu wrote "please...for the love of humanity, stop commenting to every post. I am curious to ..." I hope that Amy Chua has plenty of money saved for the therapy that her children are certainly going to need. What she is doing is so impossibly cruel that it is tantamount to child abuse. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986103 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986103
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 22:11:36 GMT
Anne-Marie Jefferson wrote "I hope that Amy Chua has plenty of money saved for the therapy that her ..." Glad you acknowledge the cultural differences, which combine nature and nurture, and don't fall back on a universal human nature. Different clusters of people, by heritage and ethnicity, follow different goals and values. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986097 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986097
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 22:09:30 GMT
tom merle wrote "Glad you acknowledge the cultural differences, which combine nature and nurture, and don't ..." There is a detailed discussion about traditional Confucian child rearing practice, its history, techniques and purpose in the book <<The Confucian Mind>>, available on Amazon.
I know Asians don't like to hear it, but this is a slave culture. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986094 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986094
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 22:08:19 GMT
xue wen wrote "There is a detailed discussion about traditional Confucian child rearing practice, its history, ..." Stereotypes are almost always accurate in the bell curve sense. Where they fail is at the two ends, i.e. not everyone in a given group shares the traits just most people. The Chinese after so many centuries are predisposed to act in certain ways and have the intellectual equipment and personalities to support these traits. Culture is the intersection of nature and nurture. The culture reinforces the capacities. Not a politically correct perspective, but this doesn't make it wrong, John. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986080 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986080
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 22:04:49 GMT
tom merle wrote "Stereotypes are almost always accurate in the bell curve sense. Where they fail is at the two ..." Before you criticize Chinese as a whole, do some real research first. If you are intelligent and not simple minded, you will not think every Chinese the same. Chua's story is hers only. Do you fall to the false statement of the essay tittle made by WSJ? Do you believe Chua represents all Chinese? Read all the comments written by Chinese to know other side stories. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986072 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986072
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 22:02:31 GMT
mary Chen wrote "Before you criticize Chinese as a whole, do some real research first. If ..." "Liberal parenting in action here. No A in spelling tests."
Also, the word is a transliteration, not an English word. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986055 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986055
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 21:57:24 GMT
Shuvo Datta wrote ""Liberal parenting in action here. No A in spelling tests."Also, the word is a ..." My children attend a private international boarding school. I have had the honor of hosting many Asian kids for weekends, etc. The "otherness" they speak of is the baseline expectation that they are monolithic in their work ethic and math skills. They complain often of being expected to ace every physics, calc test, etc. but are often overlooked for roles in the plays, elite choirs dance teams and other extracurricular activities. Reverse discrimination is a real issue for these kids.
When my son was a senior an Asian classmate (who received admission to two other Ivy's) didn't get into the college of his parent's dreams. They banned him from returning to Taiwan over Spring Break AND wouldn't allow him to accompany the Jazz Band for a performance in New York. The kids in the school were livid, and he was heartbroken. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986044 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986044
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 21:53:36 GMT
Kathy Caldwell wrote "My children attend a private international boarding school. I have had the ..." American dominance wasn't created by bad parenting. There is a reason America has often excelled in innovation, management, design, etc; it is because American mother's give their children the chance to explore and develop. In addition while the Chinese children grow up to run governments that oppress minority groups, American mother's raise their children to be self sacrificing, giving their time, money, and lives to help others. American mother's are superior at raising respectful global citizens...Chinese mother's? Well look to China for that answer.
The son of a great American mother. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986041 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986041
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 21:53:24 GMT
Aaron Easlick wrote "American dominance wasn't created by bad parenting. There is a reason America has often ..." Is anyone really surprised by this article? Seriously? We all know the statistics regarding Asian students and how they outperform their Western counterparts. Did we think this happened with lollipop rewards and sunshine playdates? No, we all know it's because Asian parents have much higher expectations than Western parents, and they believe nothing is more important than education. Period. Is it our place to judge? No. Just as it's not their place to judge Western parenting styles. We are different cultures, with different views on what constitutes happiness and success. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986040 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986040
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 21:52:39 GMT
Patti Merz wrote "Is anyone really surprised by this article? Seriously? We all know the statistics regarding ..." Some of the criticisms from non-Asians here are scarier than Amy Chua's methods in raising her children. The generalization and attacks against Chinese-Americans and mainland Chinese is ridiculous. And by the way, what do mainland Chinese have to do with anything anyway? The difference between cultures in that country and that of Chinese-Americans is huge. This article was a little misleading because anyone who gives Chua's article any thought should realize that this is only one voice amongst millions (billions?) and certainly the author does not represent how all Chinese mothers raise their children. My own Chinese-American mother was one of the most empathetic, lenient parents in my diverse, southern California neighborhood. She was not only a great mother then, she's a great mother now. And I didn't have to practice playing the piano for 2 hours a day or to necessarily get straight A's (even though I did graduate with a master's degree recently... what can I say, putting a high value on education IS one of our cultural strengths). http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986037 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986037
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 21:52:19 GMT
neil desmond wrote "Some of the criticisms from non-Asians here are scarier than Amy Chua's ..." s. Chua described pretty well not only the reasons why Chinese moms are superior at raising stereotypically successful kids, but also the reasons why they are not at all superior at raising really successful and really happy adults.
The Chinese educational system is really good, indeed, for purely memorization-based subjects, but this system fails in subjects which require understanding and creativity.
Chinese requirements for getting the highest grades possible are good for teaching discipline in the average person, but they are devastating for the non-average person, including ones like Einstein.
Calling a child "garbage" in English in front of other people will prepare her to survive in places where verbal humiliation is an everyday's deal (such as China or the former USSR), but I brought my children to America because I don't want them to live in such places.
Chinese parents forget that with all the requirements which their children have to fulfill they also have one right: to be a child.
Why do I believe that I'm right? Because with all the economical instability and political nonsense in America there are still more Chinese who want to come here than Americans who want to escape to China.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986014 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986014
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 21:41:31 GMT
Anna Shchemelinin wrote "s. Chua described pretty well not only the reasons why Chinese moms are superior at ..." Ms. Chua described pretty well not only the reasons why Chinese moms are superior at raising stereotypically successful kids, but also the reasons why they are not at all superior at raising really successful and really happy adults.
The Chinese educational system is really good, indeed, for purely memorization-based subjects, but this system fails in subjects which require understanding and creativity.
Chinese requirements for getting the highest grades possible are good for teaching discipline in the average person, but they are devastating for the non-average person, including ones like Einstein.
Calling a child "garbage" in English in front of other people will prepare her to survive in places where verbal humiliation is an everyday's deal (such as China or the former USSR), but I brought my children to America because I don't want them to live in such places.
Chinese parents forget that with all the requirements which their children have to fulfill they also have one right: to be a child.
Why do I believe that I'm right? Because with all the economical instability and political nonsense in America there are still more Chinese who want to come here than Americans who want to escape to China.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986012 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986012
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 21:39:48 GMT
Anna Shchemelinin wrote "Ms. Chua described pretty well not only the reasons why Chinese moms are ..." My philosophy has a similiar approach. I found my justification in the writing of Malcolm Gladwell and his correlation of professional expertise to the accumulation of 10,000 hours of practice. Does this article need the racial comparison and glorifiication? No, and now consider and write how contraproductive such a stereotypical profile is to our society. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986009 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1986009
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 21:39:14 GMT
john ohara wrote "My philosophy has a similiar approach. I found my justification in the writing of ..." What if James Dobson (author of "Dare to Discipline" and "The Strong-Willed Child") were to have rehashed his parenting philosophy in an article for the WSJ? Dobson is an influential Christian fundamentalist who advocates spanking children as a form of discipline. How would readers have reacted if the WSJ editors titled it "Why Christian Parents are Superior?" Would it have generated 6,000+ comments? Would it have been fair for non-Christian readers to jump to the conclusion that all Christians are barbaric and that they are raising robots? Would people be talking about the Christian psyche?
Here's a quote from Dobson: "By learning to yield to the loving authority... of his parents, a child learns to submit to other forms of authority which will confront him later in his life — his teachers, school principal, police, neighbors and employers."
Source - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Dobson
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1985990 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1985990
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 21:31:04 GMT
David Ho wrote "What if James Dobson (author of "Dare to Discipline" and "The Strong-Willed ..." "Bingo! And Asian Americans as a group are financially more successful (census data) and mentally healthier with one of the lowest rates of suicide (nih data)."
No, it doesn't. Unless you have evidence that her parenting method and it is ALONE (controlling all the other variables (income, social status, demography etc. etc.) has CAUSAL relationship (and not mere correlation) with successful (definition needed ) children, you are merely taking two separate pieces of data and inferring conclusions at whim..
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1985989 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1985989
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 21:30:55 GMT
Shuvo Datta wrote ""Bingo! And Asian Americans as a group are financially more successful (census data) and ..." "Asian Americans are the richest ethic group (per census.gov"
More accurately Asian American households have a ~13% higher median earning than Whites based on 2008 census data.
Census data is self-reported, census data is not normalized for biases and there is no indicator that all Asian Americans bring up their children in some way significantly similar to Ms. Chua and significantly differently than Whites. Given that there are a lot of variables that would bias this one way or another. It's unreasonable to believe that they magically all balance out which if we are to imagine that this says something about child rearing styles they would.
"Asian Americans have nearly lowest suicide rates"
Which if that's supposed to counter the idea that they are mentally well-adjusted (as some claim they are not and I believe you claim they are) then it's not much of a test.
"This means that for ~90% of Americans happiness would rise with higher income."
Not exactly.
Firstly if we correlate "whites" in the Census with "westerners" in this article then only 65% can benefit from money and that ceteris paribus.. You are also off the rails about Khaneman & Deaton. They actually studied two metrics which researchers believe to be different. One is Emotional Well-Being and the other is Life Evaluation. The first is your day-to-day happiness the second is more like your overall impression of your life. 85% of people are satisfied with their Emotional Well-Being . So in terms of day-to-day happiness income doesn't matter that much. The second measure does show a correlation up to $75K but it's neither or the only or the strongest determinate. For example weekends show a 13% greater impact than high-income. It's also not the strongest thing to affect life evaluation negatively. Being alone is 7x more powerful a force than income.
So income might be good but it's ignorant to assume that wealth is gained at no other expense to our lives nor is it the only thing that can make us that happy. This is also compounded by Kasser (2004) which showed that (using a different metric but one closer to day-to-day happiness) a strict focus on money actually negatively affects our happiness. Also all of the studies I read mention that the affects of money tend to be relative. This shows up in even popular fiction i.e. Taleb noticed this in is kinda crazy book "The Black Swan" in which he realized that his happiness was related to the wealth of people he hung around.
One summary noted that one interpretation of Khaneman et al. is that more money makes you change your mind about how you think about your life but not your actual happiness.
"the median income for Asian Americans is higher than the ~$75k/year. Another fact from census.gov."
In which census? The one you posted earlier has the median at $73,578 and that's the household income not the personal income which is the figure from the Princeton study that you are quoting. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1985966 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1985966
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 21:19:37 GMT
Kim Eagles wrote ""Asian Americans are the richest ethic group (per census.gov"More ..." correct..it is more shock factor to provoke (for $$) than to impart genuine insights.. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1985963 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1985963
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 21:18:08 GMT
Shuvo Datta wrote "correct..it is more shock factor to provoke (for $$) than to impart genuine insights.." I'm not Chinese, (but I am an American-born Asian) so I can't be entirely certain; but I'm pretty sure a genuine "Chinese Mother" would never write and publish an article that is pretty much boasting about how awesome her parenting methods are.
Also, if Ms. Chua's intention was to impress (and it sure sounds like it, to me) why would she choose such stereotypically Asian instruments for her daughters? Especially when there are so many other "Chinese Mothers" harping on their kids to do the same thing? Why not be original and order one daughter to master the accordion? Or how about doing something to contribute to the world or society? To me, that would be more impressive.
Finally, and perhaps the question that bewilders me the most (and I use some terms as "loosely" as Ms. Chua does in the excerpt) if Westerners are as lazy and incompetent as Ms. Chua implies, why on earth would she marry one?????? (No offense intended, Jed.)
Who are we to judge, though...perhaps you were on the right track, Ms. Chua. But so much for being so proud and "superior," I think you left yourself a mostly unfavorable legacy. (Because the article/book is more about you than your daughters' achievements, right?) http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1985943 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1985943
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 21:07:50 GMT
Jennie Bruce wrote "I'm not Chinese, (but I am an American-born Asian) so I can't be ..." "Kevin, Surely you realize that what you stated is wishful thinking on part of the back benchers and not remotely close to reality?"
Didn't Kevin mentioned this, "I have found - in graduate school, with colleagues, and as a hiring manager".. Wishful thinking, eh? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1985925 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1985925
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 21:03:53 GMT
Shuvo Datta wrote ""Kevin, Surely you realize that what you stated is wishful thinking on ..." They should call this article: "Build Your Own Robot Kit." http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1985902 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1985902
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 20:56:14 GMT
Michael Choate wrote "They should call this article: "Build Your Own Robot Kit."..." "Let's hear from the Amy Chua's daughters!"
Give it 10 more years, once they are out of the house of 'Mommy Dearest'.. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1985891 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1985891
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 20:52:15 GMT
Shuvo Datta wrote ""Let's hear from the Amy Chua's daughters!"Give it 10 ..." What about dropping out at 17 and founding facebook?
Look, if you are going to take worst possible outcome of the 'western' method to validate your point, I might as well take the best possible one to refute it..
Did you do master's in logical fallacies? just wondering..
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1985886 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1985886
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 20:50:47 GMT
Shuvo Datta wrote "What about dropping out at 17 and founding facebook? Look, if you are going to ..." Chinese culture and the forces that shape Chinese family values have been around for 3500 years. Even if one argues, correctly, that China is a melting pot of many races, that process has been on a slow boil for 35 centuries. Here in the United States we are working on just a few centuries as a recognizable socio-econo-political entity. Our strength is in our mutability, not only willingness to accept change but ability to do so. We learn from our mistakes and do better. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1985879 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1985879
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 20:47:12 GMT
Hans Kriel wrote "Chinese culture and the forces that shape Chinese family values have been around for ..." As a manager I believed in results, pure and simple (I was very successful). My predecessor did "loyalty" checks on Christmas Eve and was always the first to arrive and last to leave. I hated that model and it took me a couple of years to convince my employees that results mattered more than punching a clock. We became the darling of the region, where cutting edge ideas were tried and proven or tossed out. We had a grand time and had results to show it. Our Division was more profitable than any other in the country and made more money than the entire Canadian division combined. I hired free thinkers, not widget makers and then held them accountable. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1985830 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1985830
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 20:29:27 GMT
Kathy Caldwell wrote "As a manager I believed in results, pure and simple (I was very successful). My ..." "That will mean a huge downward adjustment for the US standard of living."
What do you care? You are heading towards the next green pasture once this one is done.. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1985799 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1985799
Mon, 17 Jan 2011 20:22:05 GMT
Shuvo Datta wrote ""That will mean a huge downward adjustment for the US standard of living."What ..." One thing for sure, Chua's methods has negligible chance to produce a 'good Will'..because he will probably kill himself long before.. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1985790 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs=comments#comment1985790